Demonology Warlock PTR Changes

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
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11/07/2018 07:36 PMPosted by Nythkush
Can we have an update on Affliction and Destro survivability in PvP ?

You're getting a passive stam increase and a honor trait which only covers Afflfiction and Destro gives HP and Armor.

Demo only gets the passive stam increase which means we die in additional 1-2 melee hits still unable to do anything.

Is there any chance Devs can take a look at least some of these issues that have been brought up since BETA:
- Needs baseline interrupt.
- Current class design forces toxic raid behavior ignoring raid mechanics
- Ramp up time is too long for Single Target and Multi-Target.
- Doom should be made a DoT again.
- Inner Demons and Demonic Circle need to be baseline
- Cast timers too long and low survivability make this spec nearly impossible to PvP with.
11/07/2018 07:48 PMPosted by Sím
11/07/2018 07:36 PMPosted by Nythkush
Can we have an update on Affliction and Destro survivability in PvP ?

You're getting a passive stam increase and a honor trait which only covers Afflfiction and Destro gives HP and Armor.

Demo only gets the passive stam increase which means we die in additional 1-2 melee hits still unable to do anything.

Is there any chance Devs can take a look at least some of these issues that have been brought up since BETA:
- Needs baseline interrupt.
- Current class design forces toxic raid behavior ignoring raid mechanics
- Ramp up time is too long for Single Target and Multi-Target.
- Doom should be made a DoT again.
- Inner Demons and Demonic Circle need to be baseline
- Cast timers too long and low survivability make this spec nearly impossible to PvP with.


You have soul link. Your argument is invalid.
11/07/2018 07:29 PMPosted by Fiyr
Will the nether portal also be changed to summon based off shards spent rather than each cast of a summon equals 1 demon out of the portal?


Also, will we see tweeks to make demonic strength and soul strike usable for other main demons?
11/07/2018 07:50 PMPosted by Mordeacai
You have soul link. Your argument is invalid.

Hiding behind a 110 lock alt.

You should try 120 pvp. Soul Link doesn't do anything in PvP. Your troll argument invalid
Honestly, Soul Link should be baseline for all warlock specs.

I don't get why they insist Aff=Drain Life, Destro=stacking Mastery when both proven either problematic or too insufficient.
11/07/2018 07:33 PMPosted by Mordeacai
Good idea. Demo needs a damage over time spell. Affliction has dots. Destro has 2 dots. Demo only has pets


I thought the pets were the DOTs?
11/07/2018 08:46 PMPosted by Jesseda
11/07/2018 07:33 PMPosted by Mordeacai
Good idea. Demo needs a damage over time spell. Affliction has dots. Destro has 2 dots. Demo only has pets


I thought the pets were the DOTs?


I don’t understand why people say this. Dots don’t have to stop doing damage to chase the boss from one side to the other. If that’s your logic then you casting SB makes you a dot too.
11/07/2018 06:50 PMPosted by Roujeaux
Damage over time is a Warlock kit staple, and is one of the main elements distinguishing us from Mages. Doom should have never been moved to the Demo talent tree. How about dropping the gimmicks once and for all, normalize a baseline Doom's damage, and bake Call Dreadstalker into it. Like:

Doom

Afflicts the target with the dread of doom, causing X Shadow damage over 20 sec, and summoning 2 ferocious dreadstalkers to attack the target for 12 sec.

This summoning effect costs 2 Soul Shards, and has a 20 sec cd.


No absolutly not, that was one of Legion demo's failings having too much of the spec's damage behind Doom it sucked in raids and M+ that everything died before doom ticked making the spec look bad, Demo is not a dot spec it's a pet spec so our "dot damage" are the pets.

Things that do needed looking at:-
Mastery - It feels like a placeholder from Beastmaster spec, should include shadowflame damage so our Pet talents don't out scale our non pet talents like our lvl 15 talent row for example

Implosion - It has too much set up for the damages it does other classes aoe out perform it without effort, it's awkward to use and the demonic core procs should be much higher then it is, i hardly notice it when it does actually proc.

lvl 45 talent row - Raiding we are forced into burning rush leaving no choice on the talent row, the damage it does is too much in bfa. Undo the nerfs to demonskin and Darkpact azerite traits does not justify having these talents nerfed so hard, Darkpact should take the health from pets again it's the whole point having demons as a warlock.

Pet utility- we are forced into using felguard which is fine but when a group is missing an interupt or CC it's a big damage lose switching pets so they need to be baseline for demo also imps should not attack suduce targets when they are suduced.

Cast times on every spell - it's too much that every thing has a cast time, very least dreadstalkers need to be instant baseline and demonic calling should refresh the CD

innerdemons - talent would be much better if it's reduced by haste and also the extra demon summon chance is too low for the damage it does when they do spawn.

Netherportal - Demon spawning should be from per shard used and not when shards are used, a damage CD should boost the spec not greatly hinder it, also increase the damage they do it's really laughable at the moment and add more range demons to the pool.

Temporary pets- their duration should be either paused when moving to different targets or changed to energy like the imps, when a target dies and they move to another their damage is wasted epsecially on cleave fights like Ghuun. Especially now in BFA that our temporary pets are CC and targetable much more easily then they were in Legion.

From the shadows talent - needs to be removed and changed

lvl 75 talents- all 3 should be baseline for both pve and pvp purposes, they were a core part of the warlock idenity before they were made into talents as part of the pruning and it's why they are talents that Warlocks are suffering in PvP
It would be nice if demons spawned AFTER the Tyrant is summoned all gets the duration increase.

Also, would you consider making Doom baseline? Or at least removing the cast time for either the Portal or Tyrant? Right now, we are way too stationary.

No absolutly not, that was one of Legion demo's failings having too much of the spec's damage behind Doom it sucked in raids and M+ that everything died before doom ticked making the spec look bad, Demo is not a dot spec it's a pet spec so our "dot damage" are the pets.

Things that do needed looking at:-
Mastery - It feels like a placeholder from Beastmaster spec, should include shadowflame damage so our Pet talents don't out scale our non pet talents like our lvl 15 talent row for example

Implosion - It has too much set up for the damages it does other classes aoe out perform it without effort, it's awkward to use and the demonic core procs should be much higher then it is, i hardly notice it when it does actually proc.

lvl 45 talent row - Raiding we are forced into burning rush leaving no choice on the talent row, the damage it does is too much in bfa. Undo the nerfs to demonskin and Darkpact azerite traits does not justify having these talents nerfed so hard, Darkpact should take the health from pets again it's the whole point having demons as a warlock.

Pet utility- we are forced into using felguard which is fine but when a group is missing an interupt or CC it's a big damage lose switching pets so they need to be baseline for demo also imps should not attack suduce targets when they are suduced.

Cast times on every spell - it's too much that every thing has a cast time, very least dreadstalkers need to be instant baseline and demonic calling should refresh the CD

innerdemons - talent would be much better if it's reduced by haste and also the extra demon summon chance is too low for the damage it does when they do spawn.

Netherportal - Demon spawning should be from per shard used and not when shards are used, a damage CD should boost the spec not greatly hinder it, also increase the damage they do it's really laughable at the moment and add more range demons to the pool.

Temporary pets- their duration should be either paused when moving to different targets or changed to energy like the imps, when a target dies and they move to another their damage is wasted epsecially on cleave fights like Ghuun.

From the shadows talent - needs to be removed and changed

lvl 75 talents- all 3 should be baseline for both pve and pvp purposes, they were a core part of the warlock idenity before they were made into talents as part of the pruning and it's why they are talents that Warlocks are suffering in PvP


Actually, this dude here said it much better.
11/07/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Nyhlia

Can you clarify something? Will it only extend the duration when Tyrant is cast? As in we need to portal, summon as many as possible, and then Tyrant for it to have any effect? Or can we Tyrant, Nether Portal, and chain summon with the extended duration kicking in as they are summoned? I'm presuming it's the former and not the latter.


They won't clarify anything. They posted this and then instantly forgot about it. Its the last you'll hear about warlock changes until next patch. Just look at the warrior and shaman blue posts. At least here they had something to give you, not a "we know there's an issue and we'll have something soon." Then never do anything (worthwhile at least).
These changes aren't going to do anything to help Demo.

The main issue is ramp up. It takes way to long to get going. Everything has a cast time and costs shards. Now shard generation isn't an issue thankfully, especially if you take Power Siphon and Soul Strike. But getting to the point where your damage is hitting stride is ridiculous.

Dreadstalkers should be instant cast. 1.7sec Cast + 2 Shards + 20 Second CD? Come on.
Tyrant should be instant cast. Why am I having to spend nearly half the Bloodlust duration just trying to get going? While you have other classes that pop their DPS CD and off they go. Hell even Affliction doesn't take as long to get going and that has a huge setup for Death bolt.
Inner Demons should have its time reverted to prenerf. 1 imp every 12 secs? You wanted this spec to be like an army of demons. Also 10% change on proc. I've seen Prince a total of 4 times since BFA talent release during Legion. I've seen Shiv 3. It's stupid. Increase the chance or change it to every 5th-6th summon.

I really don't see people taking Bilescourge Bombers even with the buff. It's not worth it. Demonic Strength is amazing ST and burst aoe. Dreadlash combined with From the Shadows has really good synergy and the damage increase to HoG and Demonbolt is nice.

--------

No one gives a crap about Nether Portal. The spec suffers from basic mechanical issues at it's core. Fix the ramp up, consistency then worry about some 3min CD no one ever uses.
Give us instant shadowfury back.

Give us circle baseline.

Give us Howl of Terror baseline.

Remove that stupid Healthstone restriction on only ONE per combat.

Give destruction backlash back.

Remove focussed chaos, gibe CB 100% damage buff, give it a 12 sec CD and make it ignore shields, deterrance and cloak of shadows again.

Make Shadowburn an actual execute again.

Give our filler spells actual damage again.

Why can I suddenly post here? Usually it says trial accounts cannot post to forums... all in all it's stupid enough that EU players can't post here.
First, definitely appreciate the communication. We get so little of it, that it's worth saying thanks for talking. Wish there was a bit more of a back-and-forth, however.

Also, definitely see the attempt to fix currently useless talents.

Demonic Consumption - the problem is this increases our already bad ramp up requirement. You need to have a lot of imps out before using this, unlike our non-talented version, where we can continue to ramp up after the cast. I just don't see this as working well enough to make this talent worth taking.

Nether Portal - As many have noted, this needs to be changed to summon a demon for each shard used, not for each cast. I don't think the gameplay is particularly fun to have to constantly cast one shard Hand of Gul'dan.

Other issues:

Need a baseline interrupt. You can't design fights where this is a requirement and not give us a way to interrupt. Another possibility is change Grimoire:Felguard to let us summon other demons and use their abilities, like the fel hunter.

Dreadlash is undertuned and never taken over Demonic Strength.

From the Shadows and Soul Strike also both undertuned and rarely taken. Soul Strike may be taken for high movement, but could use some help.

Burning Rush needs the damage removed and maybe made a CD (also should be baseline). We don't have any baseline self healing now, so self damaging abilities should have been deleted along with Life Tap. For example, you could never use this in PvP, leaving us with zero mobility options.
So tested it on the PTR for about an hour tinkering. Here are my thoughts.

Nether Portal changes don't seem to be worth it. The summons just don't do enough damage to make it worth it. It was a pretty significant dps loss every way I tested it.

Demonic Consumption seemed to potentially be a nice damage cooldown, but even when I got consumes with ~8-10 imps out it didn't make up for the damage of losing Sacrificed Souls and the time delay of waiting to use it when a good number of imps were out. I could get in the ballpark of damage I deal with Sacrificed Souls, but it was so much more work and prone to bad Demonic Core streaks which made it so it was difficult to get those 8-10 imps up at the same time and juggle dogs/vilefiend on top of it to get the duration extension, and that was standing at the target dummy. I never noticed getting a Demonic Core proc from consumption at all so I'm not certain if that's working.

That said, there is a new trait called Baleful Invocation which increases Demonic Tyrants Demonfire damage by 996 and generates 5 soul shards when summoned on the 415 gear. I couldn't try the gear, it's on the new vendor, but possible with those things that it might be a competitive option. Hopefully I'm missing something here because these changes don't actually change anything.

TLDR: Changes are meh.
11/07/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Canitnerd
I can't help but notice you deleted my post asking about those Enhance changes we've been expecting since July. You can't stop the truth from spreading.,..


Probably because hijacking other feedback threads is not the way to get answers?

Anyway, everyone else has said most of what I would say - this really doesn't fix any of demos problems. All it does it make the other 2 level 100 talents more viable against the passive talent. Which doesn't affect me. I almost always choose the passive talents, even on demo, because the passive talents are usually less than 100 dps difference but are MUCH easier to play with. Don't get me wrong, it's nice to make the other 100 talents viable, because all 3 level 100 talents SHOULD be viable. But this really shouldn't be ALL the Demonology changes when the spec is so far below the other 2 specs.

Demonology is still EXTREMELY stationary, moreso than any other caster in the game. Demonology dps still drops 40-50% (according to raidbots, as well as my in-game experience on my alt) if the fight involves a lot of movement and still drops 20-30% if there's any movement at all, and no spec should suffer that much when movement is involved. Yes, we can alleviate *some* of that if we spec into the talent that allows us on demand Demonic Core, but it only goes so far.

We need some sort of filler spell that is either instant cast or allows us to cast while moving every so often.

Even doing something like other posters suggested like making Doom a baseline DoT (and returning it into an actual DoT) would work, as then we could simply refresh it when we need to move. Or even give us Life Tap with 2-3 charges and like 20-30 sec recharge that simply gives us a Soul Shard in exchange for some of our health, so while we're moving we can at least gain Soul Shards.

Also, something I'd love to see, is something to make Implosion more... useful. Right now it's only really useful if there's more than like 6 targets. An AoE skill should be usable if there's more than 3. Why not make it so if it hits at least 3 targets, your next Hand of Gul'dan uses one less Soul Shard, but at minimum 1? It would help us re-gain our imps faster, but also encourage us to use Implosion on less than 6 targets, without overpowering Implosion as well.

EDIT: FOR THE LOVE OF GOD GIVE US A BASELINE INTERRUPT, OR MAKE FELGUARD'S STUN ALSO INTERRUPT. There are too many dungeon/raid mechanics in BFA that require interrupts, and expecting Demonology to take a massive DPS loss using Felhunter just to interrupt is ridiculous. The other 2 specs can use Felhunter without taking a DPS loss just fine, but Demonology is literally designed around using Felguard.

11/08/2018 01:22 AMPosted by Majycal

Dreadlash is undertuned and never taken over Demonic Strength.

From the Shadows and Soul Strike also both undertuned and rarely taken. Soul Strike may be taken for high movement, but could use some help.


In-Game, Dreadlash always comes out ahead for me compared to Demonic Strength. Raidbots says Demonic Strength should be ~1.8% stronger, but I've never been able to replicate it. It also requires a Felguard, which isn't always available because you need to use Felhunter for interrupts.

I take From the Shadows simply because it's so much easier to use than the others. The only real tweak I think it could use it make the aura affect EVERY target Hand of Gul'dan hits, not just your primary target. That way if you switch targets, then Demonbolts you launch still get the bonus. Cause right now it's really stupid that if you use Hand of Gul'dan then your target dies or an add spawns that needs to die, From the Shadows becomes pointless.

I refuse to use Soul Strike simply because it requires a Felguard, and as mentioned above, I have to use a Felhunter a lot because I need an interrupt. It also requires your Felguard be in melee range of the target, and Felguard's AI in this xpac is really weird, and has a habit of running off to random targets a lot. (The amount of times it's randomly ran off to attack the target dummies in Freehold is kinda amazing)

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