Demonology Warlock PTR Changes

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11/07/2018 05:46 PMPosted by Nimox
In the current build up on the PTR (Public Test Realm), a few changes were made to the Demonic Consumption level 100 talent:

    - Any imp that the Demonic Tyrant consumes now has a chance to grant you the Demonic Core buff. If your Tyrant consumes six imps when summoned, you have six individual chances to get a Demonic Core buff applied to you.
    - The damage buff to the Demonic Tyrant from consuming the Wild Imps is now much higher.


One additional note about the Demonic Tyrant:
    - In an upcoming build, the Demonic Tyrant will also extend the duration of any demons summoned from the Nether Portal level 100 talent.


Any other changes planned for the PvP side? The change mentioned above alters nothing of Demo's mechanical problems like ramp up, reliance on hardcasts and target switching, just to name a few.

If no other changes are planned, I'm sorry but I have to say this is a lazy way to try fixing Demo's PvE damage, shoving the necessary extra damage into a 3 minute CD, the same way we have with Destro's infernal and Affliction's Darkglare.
Wait, did Tyrant seriously not affect Nether Portal demons before or am I misreading that?
I agree with all that my fellow friends said above, I'd like to just complement it. Why Vilefiend costs a soul shard while soul strike in the same tier gemerates it? Make it generate a shard too.

Demonbolt damage is a little meh compared to what the spell proposed to be, a huge badass hard hitting bolt, like pyroblast or chaos bolt.

Implosion is nice if you want to dump your imps before moving, but it can wreck your rotation in cleave fights. I sorely miss demonwrath, we could get it back.

In pvp, felguard's fel storm, or imp's firebolts could apply a slow on the target, so we can open a distance on melee, to cast HoG, and the various other casts, that are a huge concern in pvp.
Can we just make Summon Demonic Tyrant Instant. It really doesnt make sense to be a cast when Afflicts Darkglare is instant and so is Destructions Infernal. The only counter arguement i can see is those are 3 minute cds.

With the amount of casting that Demonology has already, removing the casting from Demonic Tyrant just makes sense.

Please make it instant cast
I am one of those that actually enjoys the design/mechanics of demon in BFA, but speaking from a strictly pvp/arenaing point of view I need to say that the list of changes this spec needs to be truly competitive right now is pretty long. I'm a 2.8k xp multiclasser/mglad formerly from EU. Right now I got the two highest rated warlocks on the NA 2v2 ladder.

I'd like to suggest a few things:
Baseline snare - Least mobile class in the game, everyone outruns and pillars my dmg if they choose to. Not that much fun every time hunters, rogues, demonhunters, monks, druids, warriors, priests, paladins and shamans sprint around and remind me how valuable mobility and snares are in this game.
Baseline forward mobility - Same as above, people that knows my specs weaknesses will just kite, run and los me and my dmg and I have no way of countering that right now. People burst, sitting next to a pillar, then kite out of los/range with snares on me until their burst is up again. How about a leap, a sprint on a cooldown that doesn't cost hp, something like dk's deaths advance?
Power Siphon+Inner demons dependency - This spec does not really function without these two talents, because without them, we become too immobile, too castdependant with way too much rampuptime. PvP in this game isn't designed well for casts, you should consider making these talents baseline.
Baseline teleport - Yep. Either that or make coil heal for alot more for demonlocks.
Instant dreadstalkers - This spell should be instant baseline.
Shadow's Bite baseline - This talent is alot of fun to play around with, and it also seems like it improves demonology gameplay so much you could consider making this trait baseline. On a sidenote though, there's alot of really badly designed traits for demonology, this one really stands out as a gamechanger.
Instant tyrant - We got too much rampuptime, that can easily be interrupted in a game full of instant kicks, stuns, saps, knockbacks and anti-cast abilities from other classes. I don't understand why tyrant absolutely has to be a cast, a long cast that just begs for an interrupt. I have sometimes found myself delaying my setup for over half a minute because my opponents disruptive gameplay. Meanwhile the majority of my opposition presses one instant button to unleash full burst.
Instant summon - We used to have this in the past. It allows more flavor to the game by allowing us to swap pets situationally, making our class far more versatile. Pet resummon is a pretty long cast, and it costs a soulshard, pretty expensive if you ask me.
Felguard mitigation - Felguard is too squishy in pvp and can flop to spread ae pressure with zero mind put into actually killing it. Single target focus makes it flop faster than I can summon a new. World of resummon doesn't humour me much, to be honest. Lets not make demon gameplay in arena a game of keeping pet alive. I can't kill a warriors mortal strike, stormbolt, mitigation and bladestorm, the one spec that is currently more dependant on the pet than any other should have better means of keeping it alive.
Demonic gateway - Why is this still a interruptable cast? And not instant with a cooldown? A warrior leaping in and stormbolting/kicking gateway is near unavoidable in certain arenas even with backup from team. This shouldn't be a wincondition for any team.
Unending resolve - 3 minute cooldown is too high, the 40% effect is also too weak. I'd rather have you remove the interruptimmunity on this ability, increase the effect and lower the cooldown. There's a number of classes that have defensive cooldowns wich mitigates up to 100% of all incoming damage on shorter cooldown while warlocks randomly flop through wall vs comps like turbo.
Wall lockout - Taking a kick locks out our unending resolve. If you take this ability off shadowschool and put it into shadowflame, or physical, at least we get to chance ramping up damage without fear of getting randomly kicked into a oneshot. Allows us to do something other than waiting for dreads cooldown or molten core procs.

Mitigationbuffs for affli and destro only - if you make felguard tankier I'd be ok with this, but as it stands right now, I'm pretty sure that the worst performer of the 3 warlockspecs and among the worst performing specs overall in the game is losing ground. I really hope you consider making some changes that help demonlocks get up to par with the competition in pvp.

From my point of view, demonology is the only enjoyable spec I can play as a warlock. I don't like dotnrot, I don't like the current version of destro, and I enjoy that demonologylock now actually is a bursty setupbased singletargeter and initiativetaker instead of a slow dampener that can't kill players with brains before hitting 80% dampening.

And yea, bring back glad in 2s.
11/07/2018 05:46 PMPosted by Nimox
In the current build up on the PTR (Public Test Realm), a few changes were made to the Demonic Consumption level 100 talent:

    - Any imp that the Demonic Tyrant consumes now has a chance to grant you the Demonic Core buff. If your Tyrant consumes six imps when summoned, you have six individual chances to get a Demonic Core buff applied to you.
    - The damage buff to the Demonic Tyrant from consuming the Wild Imps is now much higher.


One additional note about the Demonic Tyrant:
    - In an upcoming build, the Demonic Tyrant will also extend the duration of any demons summoned from the Nether Portal level 100 talent.


Are we supposed to be happy or anything?
Demonology issue isn't the level 100 talent.
It's survability or mobility and the huge HUGE ramp up time and massive hardcasting.
This fixes nothing, actually not only it fixes NADA but shows how disconnected from Demonology devs are.
Nice to see you paying at least some attention to this dead spec. However, these changed will solve nothing.

The main issue with this spec is the lack of even one single instant cast spell and it was more viable in Legion when you could just spam Demonwrath on the move and still get some damage going on.

The more instant casts and shorter cast-time spells a spec has, the more viable it is in both pve and pvp. Either readjust all raids and dungeons to not require movement and have specs that can only succeed by standing still be viable again, or readjust the said specs to the current mechanics. What's so hard in balancing this?

Suggestions:

1. Make dreadstalkers instant cast baseline and change the talent to give shadow bolt a chance to reset their cd. If you think it's too much, give them 2 charges with each charge summoning one dreadstalker, similar to how BM hunters used to have Dire Beasts.

2. Make Summon Demonic Tyrant instant cast

3. Make Summon Vile fiend instant cast

4. Make Nether portal instant cast and keep it at 3 soul shards cost

OR

5. Make doom baseline and make a talent in its place that decreases Shadow bolt cast time by 0.5 seconds no matter what demon you're using. Remove the similar talent from the pvp talents and give something useful to use with the Felguard.

6. Remove Implosion and bring back Demonwrath from Legion.

7. Bring back the instant cast with 2 charges Shadowflame from Legion.

There you go, spec is viable again.
Just give me a pit lord, give us doom and inner demons baseline and demonwrath back and I’ll be happy
11/08/2018 04:12 AMPosted by Ryuku
Can we just make Summon Demonic Tyrant Instant. It really doesnt make sense to be a cast when Afflicts Darkglare is instant and so is Destructions Infernal. The only counter arguement i can see is those are 3 minute cds.

With the amount of casting that Demonology has already, removing the casting from Demonic Tyrant just makes sense.

Please make it instant cast


Agreed.

(I hate to use the word "clunky," but there it is... the casting time is.... CLUNKY.)
Am I the only one who is curious if Tyrant will extend any demons summoned by Inner Demons if they happen to be out at the moment?

I get that it won't have nearly the impact compared to it effecting Nether Portal demons. It makes sense that it should extend them, seeing as they are drawn from the same "pool".
11/08/2018 06:19 AMPosted by Sieten
11/07/2018 05:46 PMPosted by Nimox
In the current build up on the PTR (Public Test Realm), a few changes were made to the Demonic Consumption level 100 talent:

    - Any imp that the Demonic Tyrant consumes now has a chance to grant you the Demonic Core buff. If your Tyrant consumes six imps when summoned, you have six individual chances to get a Demonic Core buff applied to you.
    - The damage buff to the Demonic Tyrant from consuming the Wild Imps is now much higher.


One additional note about the Demonic Tyrant:
    - In an upcoming build, the Demonic Tyrant will also extend the duration of any demons summoned from the Nether Portal level 100 talent.


Are we supposed to be happy or anything?
Demonology issue isn't the level 100 talent.
It's survability or mobility and the huge HUGE ramp up time and massive hardcasting.
This fixes nothing, actually not only it fixes NADA but shows how disconnected from Demonology devs are.


This ^

The attention is appreciated but its drop in the bucket for the changes demo needs to be a good spec

Its shocking to me they haven't made any more abilities instant cast baseline, makes me think none of the devs have actually tried high mythic plus or raiding, or PvP with this spec.
11/07/2018 06:59 PMPosted by Nyhlia
11/07/2018 05:46 PMPosted by Nimox
One additional note about the Demonic Tyrant:
    - In an upcoming build, the Demonic Tyrant will also extend the duration of any demons summoned from the Nether Portal level 100 talent.


Can you clarify something? Will it only extend the duration when Tyrant is cast? As in we need to portal, summon as many as possible, and then Tyrant for it to have any effect? Or can we Tyrant, Nether Portal, and chain summon with the extended duration kicking in as they are summoned? I'm presuming it's the former and not the latter.


The Demonic Tyrant extends the summon duration of all demons that are currently active when the Demonic Tyrant is summoned. Demons summoned after the Demonic Tyrant has been cast do not get the duration extension.

All demons, regardless of whether they were active before the Demonic Tyrant summon, or if they were summoned afterwards, should still benefit from the area damage buff (currently 15%) that the Demonic Tyrant provides while the Demonic Tyrant is still active.
Is Nether Portal going to continue to function on a "per cast of Soul Shard spender" instead of "per Soul Shard spent"? It's frankly a very counterintuitive spell.

edit: While I understand the use of the CD to temporarily change the rotation to be more focused on shoving out casts, it's awkwardly limited by a lack of low cost SS spenders.
11/08/2018 10:22 AMPosted by Nimox
All demons, regardless of whether they were active before the Demonic Tyrant summon, or if they were summoned afterwards, should still benefit from the area damage buff (currently 15%) that the Demonic Tyrant provides while the Demonic Tyrant is still active.


So... does "all demons" include those summoned by the Inner Demons talent, or is it only the currently affected demons in addition to those summoned via Nether Portal?
So is Demonic Core going to be changed because of the talent change? Will the talent be able to bypass the 4 stack limit?

It won't matter if you get six individual chances if the first 4 proc. Yes this change still increases over all procs but I would still prefer it to allow a chance at getting that perfect chance of a proc for every imp sacrificed.
11/08/2018 10:22 AMPosted by Nimox
The Demonic Tyrant extends the summon duration of all demons that are currently active when the Demonic Tyrant is summoned. Demons summoned after the Demonic Tyrant has been cast do not get the duration extension.

All demons, regardless of whether they were active before the Demonic Tyrant summon, or if they were summoned afterwards, should still benefit from the area damage buff (currently 15%) that the Demonic Tyrant provides while the Demonic Tyrant is still active.


Thank you for the follow up.

I didn't seem to get demonic core procs from Demonic Tyrant, in repeated tests I would sac 8-10 imps and have no procs. The only noticeable procs I was getting was from dogs timing out and I could tell because I setup weak auras to monitor shadow's bite proc'ing.
Thank you for some changes. I'm looking forward to trying out some different builds.

There are still a few issue that Demo Locks have:

1. Locked into Felguard pet or basically losing DPS (nobody else needs to choose between having tools such as spell lock and having DPS)

Solution: Make Demo have two pets similar to BM hunters, 1 always being your Felguard or Make Felguard stun also interrupt (This is a band-aid IMO)

2. Clunky AOE. AOE takes time to ramp up and we need to spend time using single target spells to generate Souls to fuel AOE spells, unintuative.

Solution: Bring back Demon's Wrath. Allow us to cast while moving it only circles your primary pet. (with more damage than before obviously) generates Shards based on enemies hit.

3. Lack of options while Moving

Solution: This one is tricky because it starts playing into the identity of the class. I believe that Dreadstalkers should be Instant Cast always, same with most of our talents ( Portal, BB, Vile) that way we have more options in fights that require more movement. Also make Burning Feet Baseline and replace (maybe with something that makes the move less punishing)

If you made all or some of these changes, I believe that the spec would be in a fantastic spot. Thanks for the update, I look forward to more positive changes.
Can you please review the Forbidden Knowledge azerite trait?

Issues:

Top: It's proc duration is too low.


Often, when you get the proc you are swimming in 2-3 Demonic Core procs which turn into 4-6 shards which means 2-3 GCD's casting demonbolts that don't benefit from the trait, then another 2-3 Hand of Gul'dan casts to empty the shards to not waste shards casting the demonbolt that will generate another 2, and by the time you cast for another 4 seconds the hardcasted demonbolt to benefit from the trait, the buff is already gone. This assume you also don't have to deal with mechanics.

- Really low proc rate for the benefit it offers. Feels weak.
- Humongous cast time doesn't feel rewarded with enough damage, it barely hits in the same or less ballpark of a regular chaosbolt, which takes quite less time to cast.

Suggestion: Increase proc rate duration to 20-25 seconds, make it guaranteed after dreadstalkers expire, bump up the damage some more. Add a visual to the proc as well, please.
Thanks for the update, but there are still a lot of other changes needed.

I am not going to go into a big spill about needed Demo changes because they are already all over this forum. I will say though, I enjoy the new Demo spec compared to it's former self. Sadly, in order to make it work correctly and fairly, in comparison to other classes, please review all of the other suggestions posted.

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