Demonology Warlock PTR Changes

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11/08/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Sarung
1. Locked into Felguard pet or basically losing DPS (nobody else needs to choose between having tools such as spell lock and having DPS)

Solution: Make Demo have two pets similar to BM hunters, 1 always being your Felguard or Make Felguard stun also interrupt (This is a band-aid IMO)
I'd much prefer if Spell Lock is baseline on the warlock, so every spec gets the QoL improvement and no one gets shafted when they need to interrupt. Felhunter can be given something else to compensate interrupt.

But i'll be happy enough if they just make pvp talent Call Felhunter baseline. Not a 'perfect' solution, but at least it is working fine with zero major issues.

Because i'm not sure if hoping for a pet system and pet skill overhaul on warlocks is even remotely possible when we got almost zero improvements even till now, which remains relatively unchanged from vanilla. That's how antique and dated our pets are.

11/08/2018 12:38 PMPosted by Sarung
2. Clunky AOE. AOE takes time to ramp up and we need to spend time using single target spells to generate Souls to fuel AOE spells, unintuative.

Solution: Bring back Demon's Wrath. Allow us to cast while moving it only circles your primary pet. (with more damage than before obviously) generates Shards based on enemies hit.
I'd prefer if Demonwrath's damage aura radiates on both us and our primary pet. Just need to make sure the damage aura doesn't stack on one another, which they did that in Legion when imps are close to target.

This would allow Demonwrath to be much more flexible, and it pays homage to the OG Demolock's AoE spell - Hellfire.
While I am glad to see Blizzard making changes to improve classes, it seems like this is a rather minimal change. Pretty much all classes need a total talent rework and balance pass.

Although maybe this change is a lot, because my lock experience hasn’t gone past level 85.
No absolutely not, that was one of Legion demo's failings having too much of the spec's damage behind Doom it sucked in raids and M+ that everything died before doom ticked making the spec look bad, Demo is not a dot spec it's a pet spec so our "dot damage" are the pets.


Prior to MoP, Demo had access to Corruption, Doom, Immolate, and Agony at the same time. Damage over time has been a part of Demo for most of its existence. Destruction isn't a dot spec either, and yet Immolate damage over time has been a part of its rotation since Vanilla. Damage over time and pets are a part of Warlock historical identity overall. Doom is also helpful for spammable, instant cast mob tagging. Pet damage can still be tuned to do most of Demo's damage. Doom doesn't have to do disproportional damage. I stand by what I said.
11/08/2018 01:21 PMPosted by Fairyland
I'd prefer if Demonwrath's damage aura radiates on both us and our primary pet. Just need to make sure the damage aura doesn't stack on one another, which they did that in Legion when imps are close to target.

This would allow Demonwrath to be much more flexible, and it pays homage to the OG Demolock's AoE spell - Hellfire.


Or for even more control and flexibility, allow Demonwrath to target either just the player or any of your individual summoned or combat demons.

Imp Swarm feels like it should have remained in the Demo Lvl 15 Talent Tree row in the stead of Bilescourge Bombers, which feels like a bad Rain of Fire ripoff.
11/08/2018 01:26 PMPosted by Bigdiggles
While I am glad to see Blizzard making changes to improve classes, it seems like this is a rather minimal change. Pretty much all classes need a total talent rework and balance pass.

Although maybe this change is a lot, because my lock experience hasn’t gone past level 85.


You are not missing much because we get almost nothing new from 85 to 120.
A good start, but I'm concerned about the mobility drawbacks of these talents.

This new version of Nether Portal will still require upwards of 20 seconds of stationary freecasting. That is a huge ask in PVE and an impossibility in PVP. I'm just not confident such a talent can ever be tuned to offset the loss in throughput if/when you need to move during it's duration.

Consumption is much the same issue. Whether it's one set of imps or two, this talent requires a lot of set up in a spec that already has a lot of ramp up. Again, I'm just not confident this can be tuned to compete with the quality of life afforded by Sac Souls.

If possible, I suggest re-examining that row. Sac Souls is a passive talent that ends up functioning as a de facto mobility talent in a spec that is disproportionately punished for moving. NP and DC are turret talents. It's going to be hard to make them attractive without redesining core aspects of the spec.
11/09/2018 05:54 AMPosted by Styxz
A good start, but I'm concerned about the mobility drawbacks of these talents.

This new version of Nether Portal will still require upwards of 20 seconds of stationary freecasting. That is a huge ask in PVE and an impossibility in PVP. I'm just not confident such a talent can ever be tuned to offset the loss in throughput if/when you need to move during it's duration.

Consumption is much the same issue. Whether it's one set of imps or two, this talent requires a lot of set up in a spec that already has a lot of ramp up. Again, I'm just not confident this can be tuned to compete with the quality of life afforded by Sac Souls.


Wouldn't you just take Corrupted Souls then? Like, if a fight is high mobility and 2 specific talents won't work well you take another. It's called diversity. And with how strong these 2 are shaping up to be there might not be room for Corrupted Souls other than higher mobility fights.

I understand the spec is very stationary, but that is just one of its things. Learning to master that in all situations is where the added skill comes in. No sense in making it like other specs, then it loses some personality.
11/08/2018 03:56 PMPosted by Roujeaux
No absolutely not, that was one of Legion demo's failings having too much of the spec's damage behind Doom it sucked in raids and M+ that everything died before doom ticked making the spec look bad, Demo is not a dot spec it's a pet spec so our "dot damage" are the pets.


Prior to MoP, Demo had access to Corruption, Doom, Immolate, and Agony at the same time. Damage over time has been a part of Demo for most of its existence. Destruction isn't a dot spec either, and yet Immolate damage over time has been a part of its rotation since Vanilla. Damage over time and pets are a part of Warlock historical identity overall. Doom is also helpful for spammable, instant cast mob tagging. Pet damage can still be tuned to do most of Demo's damage. Doom doesn't have to do disproportional damage. I stand by what I said.


Coming into legion, however, Blizzard decided to bring out the class fantasy of each spec and really play on that. Affliction is your DoT spec. Destruction is your hard hitter fast switcher. Demo is your pet spec. If you want to play a DoT spec you don't even have the issue most people face of having to reroll, you can simply hit N and select affliction. Look, now we're all happy.
I'd much prefer if Spell Lock is baseline on the warlock, so every spec gets the QoL improvement and no one gets shafted when they need to interrupt. Felhunter can be given something else to compensate interrupt.

But i'll be happy enough if they just make pvp talent Call Felhunter baseline. Not a 'perfect' solution, but at least it is working fine with zero major issues.


I'll agree that we need some form of interrupt that does not require us to summon a suboptimal pet, cast Spell Lock, then recast Felguard. Perhaps we could see a silence in the form of a 24s cooldown, but allow Felhunter to have a shorter CD interrupt (18s? 15s?) for situations where perhaps an Affliction lock could take that giving that pet a clear advantage still.
11/09/2018 06:25 AMPosted by Vaeramus
11/09/2018 05:54 AMPosted by Styxz
A good start, but I'm concerned about the mobility drawbacks of these talents.

This new version of Nether Portal will still require upwards of 20 seconds of stationary freecasting. That is a huge ask in PVE and an impossibility in PVP. I'm just not confident such a talent can ever be tuned to offset the loss in throughput if/when you need to move during it's duration.

Consumption is much the same issue. Whether it's one set of imps or two, this talent requires a lot of set up in a spec that already has a lot of ramp up. Again, I'm just not confident this can be tuned to compete with the quality of life afforded by Sac Souls.


Wouldn't you just take Corrupted Souls then? Like, if a fight is high mobility and 2 specific talents won't work well you take another. It's called diversity. And with how strong these 2 are shaping up to be there might not be room for Corrupted Souls other than higher mobility fights.

I understand the spec is very stationary, but that is just one of its things. Learning to master that in all situations is where the added skill comes in. No sense in making it like other specs, then it loses some personality.


In a perfect world that type of diversity would be nice.

The design of the encounters and the pace of PVP prohibit the long periods of freecasting required to make NP or DC attractive picks.

Have you seen the fights in the new raid? When would you have time to get optimal or even viable uptime during the NP window on these encounters? I guess you could stand in bad and ignore mechanics, but that's pretty toxic team play, and we're doing enough of it as is.
I've been rolling a demo lock since wrath but had to switch after legion. I had a bad experience in legion and when I tried out the BFA changes for demonology I was disappointed so much that I decided to roll affliction. What you are doing with these changes will not help the spec in my opinion. There are way too many hardcasts right now which are difficult to manage in raid and mythic+ situations not to mention PvP. The demonbolt procs are great, however they add an rng aspect to the spec which is fine and it is fun but the rest of the spells feel like a drag to cast out. I think either demonbolt should do a lot more dmg and/or hand of gul'dan and summon demonic tyrant spells should be instant cast with procs or limitations of course. I am not asking for the spec to be easy and overpowered but where demonology stands right now is just not viable unfortunately.
Why didn't you fix the insane ramp up.
A few more changes you will see in an upcoming PTR build:

On the current live version, there is an issue where pets are gaining bonus Energy regeneration from the Warlock's Haste stat at twice the expected value. This is already fixed in the 8.1.0 PTR build and has been for many weeks now. We have made some adjustments to keep the relative value of your pet similar to what it is on the live version:

    - Felguard, Felhunter, Succubus, and Voidwalker pets have had their damage scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 15%.
    - Imps have had their spell power scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 25%.


Another recent change we made was to reduce the duration of the Nether Portal talent from 20 seconds, down to 15 seconds. In an upcoming build, the damage of all demons that can come from the Nether Portal has been increased by 25%.
I would second that Demo could use some more instant cast spells. Dreadstalker and Tyrant seem like the most logical choices.
11/09/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Nimox
A few more changes you will see in an upcoming PTR build:

On the current live version, there is an issue where pets are gaining bonus Energy regeneration from the Warlock's Haste stat at twice the expected value. This is already fixed in the 8.1.0 PTR build and has been for many weeks now. We have made some adjustments to keep the relative value of your pet similar to what it is on the live version:

    - Felguard, Felhunter, Succubus, and Voidwalker pets have had their damage scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 15%.
    - Imps have had their spell power scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 25%.


Another recent change we made was to reduce the duration of the Nether Portal talent from 20 seconds, down to 15 seconds. In an upcoming build, the damage of all demons that can come from the Nether Portal has been increased by 25%.

Can we please get an interrupt finally? We're the only dps spec without one and it's really holding us back in M+. It's incredibly frustrating to play demo in a pug and watch as your 2 melee dps and tank let the party wipe because they've never used their interrupt before.
Interesting, I didn't know that the haste changes were in place on the PTR when I was comparing overall damage to live testing the changes to Demonic Consumption. End result is that it was skewing my numbers, will do some more testing after these get pushed to the PTR. I'm really hoping this gives us some build diversity with being able to utilize From the Shadows combined with Demonic Consumption for another set of competitive options.

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