Demonology Warlock PTR Changes

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Okay, so some of the talents are more usable, that's interesting. Some changes to the spec overall, also alright.

There is a solution to many of the concerns with instant casts that might help though:

Baseline Demon summons being instant cast, upon summoning they try to use their Command Demon spell on the target (or mouseover/focus target, if not already on CD, no Spell Lock spamming). This way utility concerns such as spell lock are shored up some, could stretch to all Warlocks and not just Demonology as it helps them with their concerns as well. Some tuning adjustments to make it fair would be a 30s CD per demon summoned (that way you can't just spam Imp Cleanse with it's 15s CD without having it actually up) and active demons would need to stay alive for 5 seconds to give the new one time to get to the target and do damage.

This proposed change would allow Demonology to dump some shards on the move for very minimal damage gains through Nether Portal talent, while being a very minor damage spell for movement (poor shard usage except in very niche situations). The utility gains speak for themselves and put Warlock utility on par with many other classes who get instant rewards when pushing their utility buttons (Warlock utility is linked to their demons).

The arguments for instant summons is that the time for slow summons is long since past, lore-wise we have learned some new tricks during Legion, in terms of gameplay Warlock utility is mostly linked to their pet.

Updates to pet demon abilities would be welcome and long overdue as well, VW taunt should act as a redirect for the next enemy ability as well as a forced target shift to them. Succubus slow should affect all nearby enemies (whips lash about hitting many targets when used). Imp cleanse should also remove physical effects (it's a singe, cauterize bleeds and other physical wounds like hamstrings). Felhunter should detect stealthed enemies (for finding those sneaky Zandalari's in Atal, among a few other places). All of those could be passively updated and none require new extra buttons, merely passive effects.

Look, trying to keep things from being really overpowered here, but want some fixes that will actually affect both the utility and mechanical issues with gameplay. Elegant solutions like these require very little adjusting to keep them balanced as well (range on Felhunter sight could be quite small, could even just be added to Eye of Kilrogg like Demon Hunter sight).
11/09/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Nimox
A few more changes you will see in an upcoming PTR build:

On the current live version, there is an issue where pets are gaining bonus Energy regeneration from the Warlock's Haste stat at twice the expected value. This is already fixed in the 8.1.0 PTR build and has been for many weeks now. We have made some adjustments to keep the relative value of your pet similar to what it is on the live version:

    - Felguard, Felhunter, Succubus, and Voidwalker pets have had their damage scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 15%.
    - Imps have had their spell power scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 25%.


Another recent change we made was to reduce the duration of the Nether Portal talent from 20 seconds, down to 15 seconds. In an upcoming build, the damage of all demons that can come from the Nether Portal has been increased by 25%.


Please, think about Demonology being the only damage spec in the game without a single interrupt, not even a long one. My suggestion would be the Felguard's Axe Toss interrupt just before the stun, so we can interrupt stun-imune targets like bosses and even many mobs in dungeons.

Also, the Succubus' Whiplash with the knockback was an awesome undervalued skill that could be used to reposition some mobs (like the hunters in Waycrest Manor) or even to pseudo-interrupt small casters. I liked that you brought Doomguard's Cripple to another pet but you didn't need to take away that incredible knockback. I would first suggest to built-in the slow in the knockback, making it an AoE slow on targets hit. Or you could just use another ability to slow, leaving the knockback as it was in legion and before.
11/09/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Nimox
A few more changes you will see in an upcoming PTR build:

On the current live version, there is an issue where pets are gaining bonus Energy regeneration from the Warlock's Haste stat at twice the expected value. This is already fixed in the 8.1.0 PTR build and has been for many weeks now. We have made some adjustments to keep the relative value of your pet similar to what it is on the live version:

    - Felguard, Felhunter, Succubus, and Voidwalker pets have had their damage scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 15%.
    - Imps have had their spell power scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 25%.


Another recent change we made was to reduce the duration of the Nether Portal talent from 20 seconds, down to 15 seconds. In an upcoming build, the damage of all demons that can come from the Nether Portal has been increased by 25%.


That certainly sounds like it'll make NP strong, but it doesn't fix the mobility challenges of the talent. Will likely make it worse, honestly.

If this is really strong, stronger than Sac Souls, it's possible we're going to have to nail our casting during the window. Seems to be a precarious point to balance on, no?

And what about the soul shard:demon issue besides? Is it intended that 3 shards summon one NP demon?
You guys are going to have to give us SOMETHING insta cast or reduce the casting time for just about all of our spells. So many fights require so much movement, it's such a hindrance to bring us over Aff Locks.
Can we just get a better interrupt? Such a dps loss as demo to have to use the fel hunter because the other dps forget they have an interrupt. Especially if you're using the felguard talents. Or make the felguard talents available to work with any of the summoned demons.

That way we aren't gimping ourselves if we decide to use demonic strength or soul strike but have to interrupt. Demonic strength obvious would have to be changed to work with different demon abilities.

Or ya know... give us a baseline interrupt. :3
Demons summoned by [Nether Portal] should have longer durations, per soul shard spent to summon them.

For example: spending 2 shards to summon dreadstalkers would produce a demon from the nether portal that lasts 25% longer. Spending 3 shards on hand of gul'dan would produce a nether portal demon that lasts 50% longer.
This spec would be a lot more fun if it still had demonwrath.
11/09/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Nimox
A few more changes you will see in an upcoming PTR build:

On the current live version, there is an issue where pets are gaining bonus Energy regeneration from the Warlock's Haste stat at twice the expected value. This is already fixed in the 8.1.0 PTR build and has been for many weeks now. We have made some adjustments to keep the relative value of your pet similar to what it is on the live version:

    - Felguard, Felhunter, Succubus, and Voidwalker pets have had their damage scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 15%.
    - Imps have had their spell power scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 25%.


Another recent change we made was to reduce the duration of the Nether Portal talent from 20 seconds, down to 15 seconds. In an upcoming build, the damage of all demons that can come from the Nether Portal has been increased by 25%.


This is absolutely huge
11/09/2018 07:00 AMPosted by Styxz
11/09/2018 06:25 AMPosted by Vaeramus
...

Wouldn't you just take Corrupted Souls then? Like, if a fight is high mobility and 2 specific talents won't work well you take another. It's called diversity. And with how strong these 2 are shaping up to be there might not be room for Corrupted Souls other than higher mobility fights.

I understand the spec is very stationary, but that is just one of its things. Learning to master that in all situations is where the added skill comes in. No sense in making it like other specs, then it loses some personality.


In a perfect world that type of diversity would be nice.

The design of the encounters and the pace of PVP prohibit the long periods of freecasting required to make NP or DC attractive picks.

Have you seen the fights in the new raid? When would you have time to get optimal or even viable uptime during the NP window on these encounters? I guess you could stand in bad and ignore mechanics, but that's pretty toxic team play, and we're doing enough of it as is.


They've already come out to say that they can't make every spec viable in PvP. And that's fair. Look at your 2 alternatives though, again you wouldn't have to reroll, simply respec. In a perfect world every spec would be great at PvP, but they're not.
I hope you can take PvP viability into consideration as well, and not only the pve aspect of this spec. Unless you plan on reducing some castdependency, tunneling the spec into netherportal wich increases cast dependency is a bad move from pvp point of view, especially in 3v3 where comps with tons of interrupts on short cooldown dominate the meta.

These changes are promoting a mechanic dependant on a long lineup of casts, gate is 2.5 seconds cast baseline, tyrant is 2 seconds. So with this we now have a 4.5 sec burstrampup (6.5 if I spec vilefiend) for a full setup, thats excluding any other cast I would make to summon as many demons as possible during the duration of the gate.

Story short, in arena you don't have this luxury between kicks, stuns, dr stuns, incaps until kicks are off cooldown again. This is too easy to shut down and make inefficient for a good team. I hope you can look into some of the suggestions made already, like making tyrant instant to help us out abit here.
More irrelevant changes that don't address the core problem of outdated immobile turret design.

It doesn't matter if we parse well, it doesn't matter if we're overtuned or if the raid gives a lot of padding opportunities to make our numbers good. That's not always going to be the case, and only the shortsighted (which are sadly the majority) are satisfied "as long as I parse good" which is truly the worst way to look at issues.

MOP Warlock was the best.
Why?
Kil'Jaeden's Cunning.
We're not asking for massive on-demand movement for our character (being able to DO things while moving is NOT asking for mobility like Mages and Hunters have), we're asking for BASIC PLAYABILITY WHILE DOING MECHANICS AND WHILE TARGETED BY MECHANICS.
Raid design evolves, it gets more complex, more demanding, it asks more of players more often.
Just let me Shadow Bolt, Incinerate, Lightning Bolt, Mind Spike, Lunar Strike, and Frostfire Bolt while moving
(not Mind Flay or Frost Bolt, I understand the oppressive design of a ranged class with a spammable slow while moving, even if it wouldn't matter because melee QOL tools are so grossly oversaturated).

Your changes for Demo don't mean squat.
Your changes for Elemental and Shadow don't mean squat.
You'll make the specs stupidly overtuned and overpowered and people will thank you for it, and you'll pat yourselves on the back, because all you're doing is listening to fake "feedback" from people who only care about their parse.
But you'll have achieved absolutely nothing because you did not address the core issue of WOD's foolish design problems ruining MOP's fun design.


Stop substituting making people overpowered for a few patches, and then crippled for a few more patches, for fixing the basic fundamental outdated design of the "immobile turret". It's outdated. It's trash. It's not fun. Stop forcing it.
And send whoever the clowns are who proposed it in WOD and ruined ranged dps fun and balance to do something else, because they have NO place designing ranged dps.
Dunno why they they are buffing demons from netherportal by only 25% I have seen some of those things hit for only 84 damage at 120 354 ilvl. that and the 15 second duration is too short to do anything unless you have godlike haste
What a joke, where’s the overhauls you guys said you were going to do in 8.1? I don’t see it

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