Demonology Warlock PTR Changes

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Warlock was the first character I leveled this expansion and I played as Demo because it seemed interesting, and Affliction and Destruction were a bit boring since they're always the "in" specs.

However, I stopped playing it soon thereafter mostly because of one reason - the Felguard dies soooooo often that it was just frustrating and not fun to have to resummon him over and over and over. And no, he didn't have taunt on (this was in group content, like dungeons). But yeah, when leveling and I did have taunt on, he died *real* fast.

Any way you guys can take a look at the pet's damage intake numbers?
11/09/2018 06:28 AMPosted by Vaeramus
Coming into legion, however, Blizzard decided to bring out the class fantasy of each spec and really play on that. Affliction is your DoT spec. Destruction is your hard hitter fast switcher. Demo is your pet spec. If you want to play a DoT spec you don't even have the issue most people face of having to reroll, you can simply hit N and select affliction. Look, now we're all happy.


Eh, doesn't really matter anyway. I still think Doom should have a place in the Demo core rotation. If the devs don't make it so, I'm not gonna lose sleep over it.

11/09/2018 06:31 AMPosted by Vaeramus
I'll agree that we need some form of interrupt that does not require us to summon a suboptimal pet, cast Spell Lock, then recast Felguard. Perhaps we could see a silence in the form of a 24s cooldown, but allow Felhunter to have a shorter CD interrupt (18s? 15s?) for situations where perhaps an Affliction lock could take that giving that pet a clear advantage still.


Easiest thing right now would be to make the Call Felhunter spell baseline.

11/09/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Soulprison
You guys are going to have to give us SOMETHING insta cast or reduce the casting time for just about all of our spells. So many fights require so much movement, it's such a hindrance to bring us over Aff Locks.


Simplest thing to do is to make Call Dreadstalkers and Summon Demonic Tyrant instant cast. That's not going to throw Haste scaling completely out of whack. In fact, it may lessen Demo's dependency on it some.
Still worse than Affliction? Still turret caster that gets screwed on most fights in the xpac that require alot of movement?

Good changes..... for a spec that still won't get used.
I love how you guys just ignore our actual feedback and just keep throwing out other changes that don't actually fix anything wrong with demo. All you're doing is buffing the non-passive level 100 talents.
11/09/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Chromey
More irrelevant changes that don't address the core problem of outdated immobile turret design.

It doesn't matter if we parse well, it doesn't matter if we're overtuned or if the raid gives a lot of padding opportunities to make our numbers good. That's not always going to be the case, and only the shortsighted (which are sadly the majority) are satisfied "as long as I parse good" which is truly the worst way to look at issues.

MOP Warlock was the best.
Why?
Kil'Jaeden's Cunning.
We're not asking for massive on-demand movement for our character (being able to DO things while moving is NOT asking for mobility like Mages and Hunters have), we're asking for BASIC PLAYABILITY WHILE DOING MECHANICS AND WHILE TARGETED BY MECHANICS.
Raid design evolves, it gets more complex, more demanding, it asks more of players more often.
Just let me Shadow Bolt, Incinerate, Lightning Bolt, Mind Spike, Lunar Strike, and Frostfire Bolt while moving
(not Mind Flay or Frost Bolt, I understand the oppressive design of a ranged class with a spammable slow while moving, even if it wouldn't matter because melee QOL tools are so grossly oversaturated).

Your changes for Demo don't mean squat.
Your changes for Elemental and Shadow don't mean squat.
You'll make the specs stupidly overtuned and overpowered and people will thank you for it, and you'll pat yourselves on the back, because all you're doing is listening to fake "feedback" from people who only care about their parse.
But you'll have achieved absolutely nothing because you did not address the core issue of WOD's foolish design problems ruining MOP's fun design.


Stop substituting making people overpowered for a few patches, and then crippled for a few more patches, for fixing the basic fundamental outdated design of the "immobile turret". It's outdated. It's trash. It's not fun. Stop forcing it.
And send whoever the clowns are who proposed it in WOD and ruined ranged dps fun and balance to do something else, because they have NO place designing ranged dps.


This is pretty emotional and over-the-top. But I'm not gonna lie and say I don't feel the same on a lot of levels.

There really needs to be a change in philosophy, not just numbers and talent tuning.
11/07/2018 08:39 PMPosted by Fairyland
Honestly, Soul Link should be baseline for all warlock specs.

I don't get why they insist Aff=Drain Life, Destro=stacking Mastery when both proven either problematic or too insufficient.


soul link is a garbage mechanic and needs to go, it is awful and pets die way more in BFA to random aoe than they did in legion and it is worthless in PVP because your pet is even squishier than you. We just need more baseline defense that isn't trash
11/09/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Nimox


Another recent change we made was to reduce the duration of the Nether Portal talent from 20 seconds, down to 15 seconds. In an upcoming build, the damage of all demons that can come from the Nether Portal has been increased by 25%.


Hi Nixom ty for your posts and replies they been super awesome, I would like to ask is that does this 25% buff change apply to the bonus demon from inner demons talent too?

Also is there any word on changes of how demons from nether portal is summoned? currently having them spawn when shards are used is just so detrimental to the spec and having a dps CD completely change how the spec rotation play negatively just feels so counterintuitive and changing it to per shard used would feel better when using it
While the buffs to pet will definitely help. You still aren't addressing the underlying mechanical issues.

THE RAMP UP IS TOO LONG!

Dreadstalkers needs to be instant cast.
Tyrant needs to be instant cast.
Increase the amount of imps from Inner Demons by reverting the nerf from 12 to 9 like beta.

And for the love of god GIVE ALL WARLOCKS A BASELINE INTERRUPT!

That alone would help all specs with being able to choose what pet they want for what situation instead of being knowingly forced into felpuppy knowing that is a DPS loss, especially for aff.

---

Please everyone. Reiterate

BASELINE INTERRUPT!
Pit lord, Inner Demons baseline and Doom baseline and reverted to one of the better previous versions.. Just gonna repeat myself.
11/09/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Styxz
This is pretty emotional and over-the-top. But I'm not gonna lie and say I don't feel the same on a lot of levels.There really needs to be a change in philosophy, not just numbers and talent tuning.

I've posted on the subject a number of times and am wordy, so it comes off that way.
But yep, we need the MOP devs back for Healers and Ranged dps.
11/09/2018 09:15 PMPosted by Chromey
11/09/2018 05:15 PMPosted by Styxz
This is pretty emotional and over-the-top. But I'm not gonna lie and say I don't feel the same on a lot of levels.There really needs to be a change in philosophy, not just numbers and talent tuning.

I've posted on the subject a number of times and am wordy, so it comes off that way.
But yep, we need the MOP devs back for Healers and Ranged dps.


I’m down. At least they were fun and had options with them around. Get those guys back
Let’s take a moment to aknowledge that the changes from legion to bfa for demonology has been amazing. This is a good design and the intentions are there.

Whilst many called us an imp mother... which had some merit... demonology design in bfa is solid and just needs refinement.

I don’t think demo needs an interrupt because melee and the tank should be doing their job. It’s a bit of a sad excuse to ask for an interrupt when so many classes already have it. Axe toss for add control is really nice utility so I won’t complain.

The polish that is needed are things like
- Vilefiend should attack their target upon summon like dread stalkers do
- Vilefiend, dread stalkers tyrant should be instant cast
- maybe a talent shuffle to have something to do with soul shard building (power trip, soul conduit, soul strike), pet improvement (vile fiend, from the shadows, demonic calling)

Things like this
-
11/09/2018 08:37 PMPosted by Sinzy
While the buffs to pet will definitely help. You still aren't addressing the underlying mechanical issues.

THE RAMP UP IS TOO LONG!

Dreadstalkers needs to be instant cast.
Tyrant needs to be instant cast.
Increase the amount of imps from Inner Demons by reverting the nerf from 12 to 9 like beta.

And for the love of god GIVE ALL WARLOCKS A BASELINE INTERRUPT!

That alone would help all specs with being able to choose what pet they want for what situation instead of being knowingly forced into felpuppy knowing that is a DPS loss, especially for aff.

---

Please everyone. Reiterate

BASELINE INTERRUPT!


this 10000x over! why wont you listen?! the current changes will do nothing to make demo viable. Its not like demo is even remotely close to being OP so why are you so afraid of big changes??

demo feels soooo sluggish compared to every other spec in the game... there is like 12 sec of casting just to get your burst off... could you imagine if warriors had to stand in one spot and cast for 15 sec in order to use Avatar?!!?!? You think 12 second of un-interrupted casting is going to happen in pvp in order to get your burst rotation off? get real.
Listen to feedback please.
We're not asking for massive on-demand movement for our character (being able to DO things while moving is NOT asking for mobility like Mages and Hunters have), we're asking for BASIC PLAYABILITY WHILE DOING MECHANICS AND WHILE TARGETED BY MECHANICS.

Raid design evolves, it gets more complex, more demanding, it asks more of players more often.


Stop substituting making people overpowered for a few patches, and then crippled for a few more patches, for fixing the basic fundamental outdated design of the "immobile turret". It's outdated. It's trash. It's not fun. Stop forcing it.
And send whoever the clowns are who proposed it in WOD and ruined ranged dps fun and balance to do something else, because they have NO place designing ranged dps.


Snipped a bit of an earlier post that outlines some of my issues with ranged DPS this expansion. Not every spec needs mobility as strong as disengage/shimmer, but they need something. I traditionally play casters, but have found most of them incredibly frustrating this expansion. Raid bosses and dungeons have become increasingly involved, with more mechanics to watch and more opportunities to min/max. As a lock/shadow priest/ele shaman, playing correctly does not feel as rewarding as it does on my melee or mobile ranged characters.

M+ last week pushed me over. In a Freehold 10, I had to stop casting for quaking. My next cast was interrupted by a mob hooking me in, which required me to blow another GCD to move out of melee. I got 2 casts off and was hooked in again, followed by another quaking. I didn't feel my class had a kit to appropriately handle the dungeon's mechanics, and the experience was oppressive as a result.

Simply put, several casters have lost too many tools. It's less a matter of min/max, and more a matter of the experience being genuinely frustrating. I almost don't even care about the damage - just let me use my abilities.

Would like to see something instant cast or castable while moving. Failing that, better passive DR so I can sit in minor mechanics without suffering a DPS loss. The current model simply isn't working for many specs, and is a huge reason many in my guild will not play a ranged DPS this expansion.

Also: Demo suffering a DPS loss to access interrupt is extremely outdated. With M+ design, they absolutely need access to an interrupt, preferably baseline.
Stop asking for an interupt.

WHO CARES!

Out of all the issues with locks right now. 1 interupt spell is the least of worries.
11/09/2018 11:39 PMPosted by Onedown
Stop asking for an interupt.

WHO CARES!

Out of all the issues with locks right now. 1 interupt spell is the least of worries.


Yeah. With all the things we need, that’s what we will get and nothing else
11/09/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Delofasht
The arguments for instant summons is that the time for slow summons is long since past, lore-wise we have learned some new tricks during Legion, in terms of gameplay Warlock utility is mostly linked to their pet.
The problem is our pet has special utility attached to them, which compounds the issue in PvP. Service was a good example of that.

The best solution we had was when Soulburn allowed us an on demand pet summoning/swapping, but placing it on a 3 min cooldown. I suppose we can have something similar back, though more likely they will say it's another button bloat.

11/09/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Delofasht
Updates to pet demon abilities would be welcome and long overdue as well, VW taunt should act as a redirect for the next enemy ability as well as a forced target shift to them. Succubus slow should affect all nearby enemies (whips lash about hitting many targets when used). Imp cleanse should also remove physical effects (it's a singe, cauterize bleeds and other physical wounds like hamstrings). Felhunter should detect stealthed enemies (for finding those sneaky Zandalari's in Atal, among a few other places). All of those could be passively updated and none require new extra buttons, merely passive effects.
I maintain my opinion that:
1, Spell Lock on Felhunter should be baseline on warlock, which benefits every spec.
2, Slow/Snare effect can be moved from Succubus to Felhunter, which compensates the loss of interrupt on Felhunter.
3, Whiplash can be reverted back into Knockback effect, which is niche but useful in other areas, like Sanguine weeks.
4, Remove the channeling mechanic on Seduction. It already has both a cast time and a cooldown, and it shares DR with Fear. The channeling mechanic is not making it balance, but a penalty instead.

11/09/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Delofasht
Elegant solutions like these require very little adjusting to keep them balanced as well (range on Felhunter sight could be quite small, could even just be added to Eye of Kilrogg like Demon Hunter sight).
Eye of Kilrogg should have similar bonus like Spectral Sight. It would even be better if it allows us to detect stealth and hidden targets/demons. That would actually give Eye of Kilrogg some bonus that benefits gameplay instead being just a pure gimmick.

I also suggested to give Eye of Kilrogg a self-destruct like ability, like dealing 1 damage in a 10 yard radius. At least it gives us another way to use the spell instead just hitting the cancel button.

11/09/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Callmesenpai
soul link is a garbage mechanic and needs to go, it is awful and pets die way more in BFA to random aoe than they did in legion and it is worthless in PVP because your pet is even squishier than you. We just need more baseline defense that isn't trash
The spell is actually great. It is only 'bad' because our baseline defenses in general have been toned down greatly, with nerfs to Soul Leech and Demon Skin.

We do need better defenses, and having Soul Leech+Soul Link baseline makes for a good foundation, since both spells work on us and our pets.

11/09/2018 11:39 PMPosted by Onedown
Stop asking for an interupt.

WHO CARES!

Out of all the issues with locks right now. 1 interupt spell is the least of worries.
If it reaches the point that you feel to need to make a post to ask people to 'stop asking', that pretty much shows there's plenty enough people cared enough to rebuke your 'who cares' argument.
11/09/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Chromey

MOP Warlock was the best.
Why?
Kil'Jaeden's Cunning.


Kil'Jaeden's Cunning was not what made MoP warlock class design the best. Not by a long shot. It did make warlocks incredibly strong in SoO with them being of the few ranged classes that could move very effectively without loosing dps. But it wasn't what made the spec design the best. Just like giving all warlock specs Kil'Jaeden's Cunning right now wouldn't instantly make them the best designed warlock specs to ever exist.

What actually made the warlock class design so amazing in MoP, was the depth of interaction between your spells and resources, along with your great selection of utility. The amount of talent and spec combinations as a pure dps class allowed warlocks to adjust and perform well on any fight and in any type of content.

Lets go into a bit of detail with what I'm talking about by discussing MoP's version of demonology, which in my opinion was the best spec to ever exist in the game.

So how did MoP demo work? As many might be familiar the spec revolved around building demonic furry (capped at 1000) and then hopping into meta, changing your spells and abilities to spend that demonic fury. On paper sound pretty simple and basic, until you look into the interaction of the spells demo had and how it allowed for players to be creative and show their skill in their use of these mechanics. Pretty much most of your abilities outside of meta could generate DF and transitioning into meta enhanced many spells and caused them to use demonic fury to gain their new effects. This allowed for many interesting and fun interactions between the two and let a skilled player really stand out.

Destro was also amazing, not because of Kil'Jaeden's Cunning but because of the interaction between your spells and resources. Chaos bolts only cost 1 burning ember but took a fair bit of time to build up, but saving them for trinket procs or other burst phases really allowed a skilled player to show what they were able to do, not to mention the use of havoc and shadow burn is something I miss most out of anything. Effective use of shadowburn havoc cleave just added that extra layer of depth to destro that just brought it to another level, and being able to toggle between aoe spells and single target spells with Fire and Brimstone just made you feel like you had a solution for any encounter you might experience. Being able to choose between using an ember to heal yourself or cast a chaos bolt felt like it had purpose and meaning. Kil'Jaeden's Cunning was definitely a bit broken for destro in SoO as most other casters didn't have an ability like it and that really showed in the numbers. But a class having broken abilities doesn't just automatically make it fun, nor does it mean it had good spec design.

In addition to all of the interactions between resources and spells that warlocks had, we also had an interesting and versatile selection of utility talents. For instance, look at the options warlocks had for defensive cool downs. In addition to having Unending Resolve and Demonic Circle base line. Every warlock spec could choose from having
- Soul Link (redirecting 20% of all damage you take to your pet and you heal for 3% of damage you deal, If you chose Grim Sac, your max health is increased by 20%)
- Sac Pac ( A 1 min cd for a shield close in size to your health pool)
- Dark Bargain ( a longer 3 min CD for 100% immunity for its duration, but then you get an 8 second dot for 50% of the amount prevented.)

These choices offered diversity and depth of interaction well beyond anything we see now in talent choices, and It was like that for every tier. How did you want your healing, your cc, to interact with your pets, ext. Your choices were not so much in what spells you were using in your rotation like you see today, but instead those spells were all built into your stander rotation, and you got to choose more utility, situation-based customization, and a deep interaction between all of your choices.

It was never just one talent that made the class design fun or the best, but always the depth of interaction and customization that was allotted to the player that made it so.
11/09/2018 10:42 AMPosted by Nimox
A few more changes you will see in an upcoming PTR build:

On the current live version, there is an issue where pets are gaining bonus Energy regeneration from the Warlock's Haste stat at twice the expected value. This is already fixed in the 8.1.0 PTR build and has been for many weeks now. We have made some adjustments to keep the relative value of your pet similar to what it is on the live version:

    - Felguard, Felhunter, Succubus, and Voidwalker pets have had their damage scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 15%.
    - Imps have had their spell power scaling from the Warlock's Spell Power increased by 25%.


So it's just an 'un-nerf' to the 'fix' coming in 8.1.0.

At least it'll be nice for poorly geared demonology warlocks.

But changes like this do sorta dash my hope that demonology might ever 'scale up' enough to be a viable raiding substitute for Affliction or Destruction.

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