Demonology Warlock PTR Changes

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Please listen to your players' feedback and give demo locks one instant cast spell at least ffs.
11/10/2018 01:23 AMPosted by Tartor
Please listen to your players' feedback and give demo locks one instant cast spell at least ffs.


That’s the problem. They don’t listen. They just hear “we’re unhappy” and nothing else and think to themselves “maybe this will help” without actually reading or listening to crap we have to say.
Sad that blizzard stocks have to drop 13% before blizzard actually buffs demo. Maybe if it drops another 13 they'll actually fix our core issues.
11/09/2018 11:39 PMPosted by Onedown
Stop asking for an interupt.

WHO CARES!

Out of all the issues with locks right now. 1 interupt spell is the least of worries.


Nah, I would like to actually contribute to my M+.

But let us address the elephant of the room. We have an interrupt in the Felhound, and I imagine a lot of people are scratching their heads wondering why we are asking for a baseline interrupt when we have a pet that can do it.

It has a lot to do with how our class is designed. The Wrathguard Pet is supposed to be our Pet as Demonology. We are unique from the other 2 specs which do not have access to it and we have talents which enhance game play with it.

The problem is that we in order to use the Felhound for our interrupt we obviously have to surrender using this (Wrathguard) pet. Which comes at a substantial DPS loss because our talents and design benefit from using Wrathguard as our main pet.

So the question to Blizzard is this basically.

WHY DO DEMO WARLOCKS HAVE TO SUFFER A DPS PENALTY TO OBTAIN AN INTERRUPT WHEN NO OTHER CLASSES SUFFER A DPS LOSS FOR THEIRS?

This isn't logical class design to penalize one spec with this trivial fantasy design.

Hell can we even have a logical compromise? Alter Demonic Strength and Soul Strike so it works with all the pets. That way it wouldnt be such a DPS loss to pick talents around it or temp using the Felhound.
I have enjoyed Demonology lock this expac, more so than last. However, with that being said (as Ion likes to say), I agree with much of the feedback here. A few have mentioned Demonwrath and missing it. I agree with this. I do actually miss having Demonwrath. It provided a means of pushing a little damage while refilling soulshards when needing to move. Mobility is a HUGE issue. I try to make it work as best I can, but the casts. SO MANY CASTS. Every core spell is a cast, with the exception of certain procs, but the procs do not make up for the amount of time I spend casting for damage. Just in PvE, Raids in particular, if I have to move, i interrupt a cast or can't cast losing damage.

Also, I don't know if anyone else has mentioned or noticed, but the pet aggro for the Felguard when he is supposed to tank for us seems to be an issue. Either he takes to long to grab aggro, or he loses aggro. I think the tank nerfs harmed our pet's ability to tank. Something worth looking into I think.

PvP? I have nothing to add. what has been said here is very on spot. I have avoided it. Too many interrupts, which can lock out my toolkit. Or I can die before I get any significant casts off. Arena? forget it. Soul link won't work if I can't get any demons out. Can't get any demons out due to the long cast times. Long cast times and predictable game play means more kiting or pillar hugging, which again means no casts, no demons, no dps, no win condition.

Just my thoughts. I would love Demonwrath back though. Miss that spell.
11/09/2018 10:56 PMPosted by Lyn
M+ last week pushed me over. In a Freehold 10, I had to stop casting for quaking. My next cast was interrupted by a mob hooking me in, which required me to blow another GCD to move out of melee. I got 2 casts off and was hooked in again, followed by another quaking. I didn't feel my class had a kit to appropriately handle the dungeon's mechanics, and the experience was oppressive as a result.

Bingo. Combat design keeps asking more of players and class design had kept evolving alongside as a result. Melee get more movement, Ranged and Healers can more often perform while moving, some Heals prioritize more injured targets because maybe, just maybe, a healer has to actually be watching parts OF the fight and not the raid UI, etc.
While Legion helped Melee out a ton, Ranged and Healers have been shafted since WOD when bad devs made the bad decision to force more archaic outdated design aspects onto these specs. For NO valid reason even.

11/10/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Irsemployee
Kil'Jaeden's Cunning was not what made MoP warlock class design the best.

Actually, it was. Ele Shaman too, Fire Mage enjoyed it a lot, Balance Druids' Lunar Shower was decent (came back in Legion and then got nerfed for no reason).
It was the best because you could ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE in the encounter WHILE dealing with or being targeted by mechanics. People will come up with a lot of half-baked or even just grossly inaccurate other reasons. Doesn't matter. This is the one that does.

11/10/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Irsemployee
the depth of interaction between your spells and resources

Bunch of vague buzzword bollocks, mate. Destro now is the same as it was then, Affliction is similar to Wrath and miles above that Mind Flay trash Cata forced on Warlocks, and Demo's essentially the best it's ever been.
You're just stringing together buzzwords and jargon to illustrate a point that simply isn't there, but the all the spoken words sound really good.

11/10/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Irsemployee
So how did MoP demo work?

It's called Shadow Priest. Demonic Fury is literally Insanity, Voidform is literally Metamorphosis. It was a garbage design to balance, and Shadow Priests have gotten to feel the sting of that since Legion where they were broken in EN, got nerfed, and then dropped off the face of the planet. And just like Demo, they look to receive major blanket buffs making them overpowered in 8.1 until they get nerfed again later.

And having played both, they even executed it a LOT better with Shadow Priest than they ever did with Demo.

11/10/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Irsemployee
Kil'Jaeden's Cunning was definitely a bit broken

No, it wasn't. It just meant your performance floor when dealing with mechanics was higher, it had zero effect on dps or mobility. People VERY incorrect say that KJC is "mobility". It's not. Blink and Disengage and Roll and Burning Rush are mobility. KJC is not. KJC is simply being able to PLAY the game while the ever-increasing vomit of mechanics and mechanics that make you run half way across the room go on.
Ember Tap is a fair point, but we saw how they "double down on strengths" when gutting our self-sustain by a massive amount in BFA. This is the kind of trash that buzzword spam like "depth of interaction" gets you by the way. The buzzwords go out, and they mean nothing, so you should really just cut through them and present much more specific information.

11/10/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Irsemployee
These choices offered diversity and depth of interaction well beyond anything we see now in talent choices

See all your buzzword spam?
See how it conveys nothing whatsoever, and is honestly used to disguise being wrong.
We STILL have a passive talent Demon Skin competing with Pact and Burning Rush (which I'd be fine with being removed from the game for my mobile casting, since I'm fine being "immobile" when I can PLAY the game while moving for mechanic vomit). We also have Mortal Coil as another healing talent option which isn't even competing against other healing talents so that's basically free.

Stop with the buzzwords. Check your facts.
Criticize with specific details, make specific points.
Don't ask for "impactful" or "depth", ask for specific changes and then give specific reasons supporting those changes.
11/10/2018 07:21 AMPosted by Sím
Alter Demonic Strength and Soul Strike so it works with all the pets. That way it wouldnt be such a DPS loss to pick talents around it or temp using the Felhound.


This this this.

Single-target pets should out perform AoE pets on single target fights.

Keep the functionality of [Soul Strike]: generate a shard and have pet charge/damage the target. (Have imp flee back to warlock immediately afterwards)

Keep the functionality of [Demonic Strength] for all pets: charge, perform pet's special attack at 400% increased damage.
11/10/2018 01:33 AMPosted by Draboe
That’s the problem. They don’t listen. They just hear “we’re unhappy” and nothing else and think to themselves “maybe this will help” without actually reading or listening to crap we have to say.

The biggest problem is parsers, the players who don't care about good design, they only care about their meter # measuring contest. Blizzard satisfies these folks with blanket throughput buffs and then they fade back off into the mist, only coming out to whine when the parse gets too low.
Useless for feedback, doesn't care about design.

The other problem is guys like the guy I just replied to. An essay worthy of my own creations, except without anything specific, just buzzword spam.
It's empty. It's the longest post full of nothing I've ever had to reply to.
(It's not really empty, there are a few good points... mostly just Ember Tap.)
For all that text, there's no actionable feedback and it isn't even factually accurate in some of its criticisms, which creates other issues.

11/10/2018 02:34 AMPosted by Felvyre
Sad that blizzard stocks have to drop 13% before blizzard actually buffs demo. Maybe if it drops another 13 they'll actually fix our core issues.

It is SO easy to just settle this whole pile of WOD garbage ruining MOP design for Ranged and Healers by restoring mobile casts and smart heals. Just because WOD involved going back in time, that didn't mean class design had to go back in time to immobile turrets as well.
Immobile turrets are fine for Classic, back when raid bosses had like 2 mechanics, and you pitched a tend and spent 10min dpsing from 1 location. Combat design evolves, more mechanics happen more often and require more action. That's WHY ranged dps and healers in MOP had reached the points they had reached.

The melee devs recognized this and basically doubled the mobility of all melee specs come Legion, in addition to often extending the range of some abilities. DKs went from nothing to Wraithwalk, Paladins got Charger, Rogues got Shadowstep on top of Sprint, Warriors got extra charges on Charge and Heroic Leap, Enhance got a Sprint, Druids got a Blink, etc. Monks and Demon Hunters already had a lot and were also the 2 newest classes, of course.

11/10/2018 07:34 AMPosted by Siglok
PvP? I have nothing to add. what has been said here is very on spot. I have avoided it. Too many interrupts, which can lock out my toolkit.

Too many interrupts (even without forced movement and facing issues), no capacity to kite melee with a million tools for movement and sticking to targets. Any kind of uncoordinated PVP is an utter nightmare if you're a caster, and probably terrible for coordinated PVP as well since casters are beyond crippled there as well.
Yet another reason to let casters actually, you know, participate in the game instead of being vulnerable target dummies who can't get a non-instant cast off. I sure do love one-sided engagements!
And it goes both ways. I'm all for melee having the tools to be sticky and get on someone, I just want casters to have the ability to PLAY without being oppressed. Let BOTH players participate in the fight, not it being a one-sided miserable experience.
If you want for haste to not be such an overwhelmingly dominant stat for demonology, you should remove shadowbolt as a shard generator and make the soul shards refill on an energy style system.

Yes, the frequency of HoG might decrease, buff its damage accordingly which is fine because HoG hits for so little to begin with.

Changing soul shards to self generate over time also addresses the warlock's crippling mobility issues as it lessens the damage loss to just losing out on shadowbolt contribution instead of both the damage of builders AND spenders delayed.

You can then remove the soul shard cost off vilefiend and nether portal, make call dreadstalkers and tyrant instant cast. Bilescourge Bombers should also not cost shards and be instant cast.

Change Implosion for a beefed up demonwrath that emanates from the felguard/summoned demon.

Buff the damage of demonbolt, it hits for virtually nothing.
Every class is trying to drown themselves in haste. This 1.7-2.0s turret style is so toxic in raids these days with high movement.

Yeah I get it. In 2008 that is how classic was. Yeah I get it you want to bring that feeling. But this is 2018 and you've changed everything so much that this style doesnt work anymore.

In WoD you gave melee MORE uptime on their targets on purpose. But at the time casters had other things to make up for it. SPriest and Lock were tanky, Hunters still had their utility kit, etc. But you took those away without any compensation. Now we're turrets made of paper.

I cannot tell you how annoying it is to try to generate 1 soul shard by casting shadowbolt in PvP without seeing Interrupted, Stunned, Sheeped, Hex'd constantly stopping me. I cannot tell you how annoying it is to have melee up your skirt and you cant doing anything about it because that requires you to stop and cast a spell which is only going to get interrupted.

Why?

Because I gave up trying to PvP as a Demo. Ramp up is too high. Need to constantly generate shards to keep pet numbers up. Its impossible because everyone has figured out that locks are a free kill and will focus you down once they see you on the battlefield.
The problem is our pet has special utility attached to them, which compounds the issue in PvP. Service was a good example of that.

The best solution we had was when Soulburn allowed us an on demand pet summoning/swapping, but placing it on a 3 min cooldown. I suppose we can have something similar back, though more likely they will say it's another button bloat.
Which wonderfully illustrates why adjusting our utility to be instantly available every 30s would not be overpowered at all. They are all very niche spells that most classes have access to all of them with similar or lower cooldowns.

I maintain my opinion that:
1, Spell Lock on Felhunter should be baseline on warlock, which benefits every spec.
2, Slow/Snare effect can be moved from Succubus to Felhunter, which compensates the loss of interrupt on Felhunter.
3, Whiplash can be reverted back into Knockback effect, which is niche but useful in other areas, like Sanguine weeks.
4, Remove the channeling mechanic on Seduction. It already has both a cast time and a cooldown, and it shares DR with Fear. The channeling mechanic is not making it balance, but a penalty instead.
This opinion seems fine and valid, but restrictive to merely PvE tuning. It has almost no benefit to class balance for PvP, which is why I suggest what I have. My suggestions help in both PvE and PvP while not directly breaking anything and actually really being helpful in PvE for a number of effects that usually need to be healed through or cannot be interrupted (due to them being instant.

Eye of Kilrogg should have similar bonus like Spectral Sight. It would even be better if it allows us to detect stealth and hidden targets/demons. That would actually give Eye of Kilrogg some bonus that benefits gameplay instead being just a pure gimmick.
Poor Eye actually does feel like button bloat, it is not even incredibly thematic, giving it stealth vision and maybe see invisibility would help so much in so many places and be very flavorful. An interesting utility that perhaps isn’t exactly necessary, but really interesting all the same.

We do need better defenses, and having Soul Leech+Soul Link baseline makes for a good foundation, since both spells work on us and our pets.
My initial response regarding Soul Link has been that I really liked and missed having it baseline for all Warlocks. However, it could be one of the reasons they have been forcing cast times on Demon pets. . . making it a talent again could be an excellent way to open to door to having Demon Armor baseline for all specs and instant Demon summons. Soul Link would still need to exist, maybe in the Demo Talents (that is how it was back in Vanilla through to Cata), possibly as a baseline Warlock PvP talent (with passive armor for PvE from Demon Armor, would we need Soul Link damage reduction for spells in PvE?).
Demo locks are seeing little to no M+ play, and its not because their damage is awful, it's because they have no interrupt. An instant cast spell would be nice for things like Mythrax where you want to push people out of an orb (Nothing feels worse than sitting hard casting a shadow bolt to knock people out of an orb on mythrax, or to damage the cysts on G'huun), but on top of that, an interrupt is so important to keep up with the other specs in M+. Even one less person without an interrupt is truly crippling for high keys, so please give us something, even a 24 second cd one. Perhaps also consider making shadow fury instant because using a casted stun as your "interrupt" sucks, especially if you can't react instantly and what you're trying to interrupt with it has a quicker cast than your shadowfury does. I really appreciate the changes so far, but an interrupt and insta cast spell are on the wishlist right now.

Also, 5 seconds off of nether portal for 2 less soul shards doesn't exactly sound like a great trade. You can generate those 2 soul shards back with 2 shadow bolts or 1 demon bolt in less than 5 seconds for sure. The talent is already not the best in the row, I don't think a full 5 seconds off is justified. Maybe 3-4 seconds would be better tuning in that regard.
I think it would rather be fair that blizz tell us what are the limitations, how far they can/wanna go in 8.1 so we at least chose a class that we can play for long or unsub by the time class becomes playable.

There are plenty of good ideas in this tread and not only, to make locks enjoyable on both pvp and pve, ppl still hope, but after this blizzcon i realized that they are not doing this on purpose, just got disconnected from playerbase.
The proposed changes solve nothing on lock issues, it's only a change for the sake of it, tick the box - we addressed locks, why dont u play it now?
Or if the intention was different please put context on changes, what do you (blizz) intend to solve from the mechanical issues raised here?
11/10/2018 02:01 PMPosted by Sím
Yeah I get it. In 2008 that is how classic was. Yeah I get it you want to bring that feeling. But this is 2018 and you've changed everything so much that this style doesnt work anymore.
In WoD you gave melee MORE uptime on their targets on purpose.

Exactly. Can't stress this enough.

Mobile Shadow Bolt, Incinerate, Lightning Bolt, Mind Spike (same-dps alternative to Mind Flay), Lunar Strike, Fireball, Arcane Missiles (at all times, not just when proc'd), and bring back Frostfire Bolt as a non-slowing same-dps alternative to Frostbolt.

This also makes balance and tuning FAR easier, since you don't have to compensate for immobility, often times going far above (Affliction sometimes) or below (Demonology right now) the mark on that compensation.


11/10/2018 04:09 PMPosted by Slizzer
There are plenty of good ideas in this tread and not only, to make locks enjoyable on both pvp and pve, ppl still hope, but after this blizzcon i realized that they are not doing this on purpose, just got disconnected from playerbase.

It's an issue with their team changes after MOP going into WOD. Someone really has a very foolish over-attachment to archaic design for ranged dps and healers only. Melee don't suffer that issue, every melee class (except the 2 newer ones who have a lot of mobility) basically had their mobility doubled by Legion.

Players had a LOT more fun in MOP on ranged dps and healers, because the class designs were more fun by allowing more active participation in fights, and mobile casting tools and smart heals were the biggest parts of that.

And this isn't just a Warlock issue, it's a ranged dps and healer issue as well. Healing sucked after MOP, I want to watch a few healthbars while actually seeing the encounter I'm on... not having to watch every single healthbar in the raid UI all the time and not even seeing the boss fight I'm participating in.
And don't even get me started on how they ruined Atonement with the awful mana-sink wasteful-overhealing garbage they put out in WOD. Just give single-target smart healing Atonement back, it was more fun (and even give more healers some similar options like Fistweaving used to be), and let healers just heal when they need to heal, and let a few smart heals cover the lighter portions.

Bit of a side rant but I spent various tiers in MOP maining Disc Priest, Warlock, and Ele Shaman... guess which 3 specs/classes I feel got shafted the most in WOD by these poor design goals.
Look, Nether Portal was a nice concept, but as a talent it's just not worth taking. Lipstick on a pig is all I'm seeing.
11/10/2018 05:56 PMPosted by Zaia
Look, Nether Portal was a nice concept, but as a talent it's just not worth taking. Lipstick on a pig is all I'm seeing.


I honestly think the various demons summoned by Nether Portal should have been baseline summoned by Hand of Gul'dan instead. It seemed like the most obvious design for a spec billed as a commander of demons. Yet here we, with Nether Portal as a talent, and Hand of Gul'dan only summoning imps. Welp......
11/10/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Roujeaux
11/10/2018 05:56 PMPosted by Zaia
Look, Nether Portal was a nice concept, but as a talent it's just not worth taking. Lipstick on a pig is all I'm seeing.


I honestly think the various demons summoned by Nether Portal should have been baseline summoned by Hand of Gul'dan instead. It seemed like the most obvious design for a spec billed as a commander of demons. Yet here we, with Nether Portal as a talent, and Hand of Gul'dan only summoning imps. Welp......


Those other demons should be more powerful than imps too.... like actually hit harder
11/10/2018 12:03 AMPosted by Fairyland
11/09/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Delofasht
The arguments for instant summons is that the time for slow summons is long since past, lore-wise we have learned some new tricks during Legion, in terms of gameplay Warlock utility is mostly linked to their pet.
The problem is our pet has special utility attached to them, which compounds the issue in PvP. Service was a good example of that.

The best solution we had was when Soulburn allowed us an on demand pet summoning/swapping, but placing it on a 3 min cooldown. I suppose we can have something similar back, though more likely they will say it's another button bloat.

11/09/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Delofasht
Updates to pet demon abilities would be welcome and long overdue as well, VW taunt should act as a redirect for the next enemy ability as well as a forced target shift to them. Succubus slow should affect all nearby enemies (whips lash about hitting many targets when used). Imp cleanse should also remove physical effects (it's a singe, cauterize bleeds and other physical wounds like hamstrings). Felhunter should detect stealthed enemies (for finding those sneaky Zandalari's in Atal, among a few other places). All of those could be passively updated and none require new extra buttons, merely passive effects.
I maintain my opinion that:
1, Spell Lock on Felhunter should be baseline on warlock, which benefits every spec.
2, Slow/Snare effect can be moved from Succubus to Felhunter, which compensates the loss of interrupt on Felhunter.
3, Whiplash can be reverted back into Knockback effect, which is niche but useful in other areas, like Sanguine weeks.
4, Remove the channeling mechanic on Seduction. It already has both a cast time and a cooldown, and it shares DR with Fear. The channeling mechanic is not making it balance, but a penalty instead.

11/09/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Delofasht
Elegant solutions like these require very little adjusting to keep them balanced as well (range on Felhunter sight could be quite small, could even just be added to Eye of Kilrogg like Demon Hunter sight).
Eye of Kilrogg should have similar bonus like Spectral Sight. It would even be better if it allows us to detect stealth and hidden targets/demons. That would actually give Eye of Kilrogg some bonus that benefits gameplay instead being just a pure gimmick.

I also suggested to give Eye of Kilrogg a self-destruct like ability, like dealing 1 damage in a 10 yard radius. At least it gives us another way to use the spell instead just hitting the cancel button.

11/09/2018 07:03 PMPosted by Callmesenpai
soul link is a garbage mechanic and needs to go, it is awful and pets die way more in BFA to random aoe than they did in legion and it is worthless in PVP because your pet is even squishier than you. We just need more baseline defense that isn't trash
The spell is actually great. It is only 'bad' because our baseline defenses in general have been toned down greatly, with nerfs to Soul Leech and Demon Skin.

We do need better defenses, and having Soul Leech+Soul Link baseline makes for a good foundation, since both spells work on us and our pets.

11/09/2018 11:39 PMPosted by Onedown
Stop asking for an interupt.

WHO CARES!

Out of all the issues with locks right now. 1 interupt spell is the least of worries.
If it reaches the point that you feel to need to make a post to ask people to 'stop asking', that pretty much shows there's plenty enough people cared enough to rebuke your 'who cares' argument.


Wrong. Because considering maybe 1% of warlocks browse the forums, let alone, this specific thread? I am only making that comment to maybe about .00005% of warlocks :)
11/10/2018 05:56 PMPosted by Zaia
Look, Nether Portal was a nice concept, but as a talent it's just not worth taking. Lipstick on a pig is all I'm seeing.


I would be delighted if [Nether Portal] was just a long cooldown version of [imp swarm] or an on-demand variation of [Inner Demons]

Cast time: instant
Cost: 3 shards
Cooldown: 90 seconds,
Summons: 6 wild imps over the next 10 seconds
11/10/2018 09:44 PMPosted by Jopsy
11/10/2018 05:56 PMPosted by Zaia
Look, Nether Portal was a nice concept, but as a talent it's just not worth taking. Lipstick on a pig is all I'm seeing.


I would be delighted if [Nether Portal] was just a long cooldown version of [imp swarm] or an on-demand variation of [Inner Demons]

Cast time: instant
Cost: 3 shards
Cooldown: 90 seconds,
Summons: 6 wild imps over the next 10 seconds


No more imps... we have enough

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