Demonology Warlock PTR Changes

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11/10/2018 05:56 PMPosted by Zaia
Look, Nether Portal was a nice concept, but as a talent it's just not worth taking. Lipstick on a pig is all I'm seeing.

That's how I would describe the changes in general. A failure to recognize that most issues stem from the bad design "goal" (if you can call such willfully terrible direction a goal) of most ranged being immobile turrets.

All this amounts to is blanket number buffs, the Shadow Priest ones look like it too, I expect the Elemental Shaman changes to pan out the same way.
Over-buffing damage output is NOT a substitution for fundamental design flaws.
In these cases, the flaws being a lack of mobile casting, a lack of ranged casters having the same uptime as melee and hunters. By getting everyone to a similar uptime, you can then tune and balance better.

Warlocks will still be "defined" by no mobility, because mobile-casting is not mobility, it's just being able to actually play while doing mechanics.
Shadow Priests will still be defined by Mass Dispel being their gimmick.
Elemental Shamans will still be defined by bringing nothing special to raids.
Etc.
Look, there is a LOT to be said about Blizzard's philosophy re: ranged mobility. I agree they're taking the complete wrong wrong approach and have been for the last 5 years. Melee and Hunters feel like they're playing a different, more modern game at this point.

That's pretty bad, and it's even worse that this is still a debate after half a decade.

That said, KJC, Ice Flows, Norganon's Prowess, etc are not the answer. We don't need to be able to cast while moving.

You do that and you make casting gratuitous and irrelevant.

Why not just make everything instant? What role do interrupts play in that world? Would you slap a cool down on Shadow Bolt or Fireball in this case?

It's a sloppy and inelegant solution imo that would lead to a really goofy style of ranged combat.

There's better ways I think, but none of them can happen until Blizzard accept that the turret design is incompatible with their game in 2018.

What's better said, Blizz should re-examine MoP locks.

I think they drew the wrong conclusions and took the wrong route in "fixing" the game after MoP's warlock domination. We weren't OP because of any one talent or ability. It was our versatility.

In any spec you had:

- Priority damage
- Spread cleave
- Clumped cleave
- Multi target sustain
- Burst
- Burst AOE
- Multi target burst
- Single target sustain
- Sustain AOE
- Self healing
- Self peel

I mean the only thing we couldn't do was lust ( thought I was gonna say tank? We could with Dark Apotheosis).

This sounds OP. And it was. But rather than cull all of it, I think Blizzard could've found a way to introduce inefficiencies in our kit without gimping us entirely. They could've done the same with other specs. We don't need everything, but I disagree we should have aspects of our kit that are straight missing like we do now.
Inner demons should be baseline

Tyrant and dreadstalker should be instant.

From the shadows is terrible.

Felguard should either get pummel or axe toss should interrupt stun immune mobs.

Sac souls should be baseline and scale off mastery.

Felguard and voidwalker need significant survivability improvements.

Doom needs to do damage more quickly as well as having a chance to summon a doomguard with each ticket.
11/11/2018 08:14 AMPosted by Tragik
Inner demons should be baseline

Tyrant and dreadstalker should be instant.

From the shadows is terrible.

Felguard should either get pummel or axe toss should interrupt stun immune mobs.

Sac souls should be baseline and scale off mastery.

Felguard and voidwalker need significant survivability improvements.

Doom needs to do damage more quickly as well as having a chance to summon a doomguard with each ticket.


Doom also needs to be baseline. But I agree with pretty much everything otherwise
Player's feedback is quite clear and this tread at least, is full of good will.

I'm curious what devs hope to solve with these proposed changes, as it ties nowhere with what players summed up so far in here.
At least give us some context Blizz, maybe we are looking in a wrong direction, so we can provide feedback where you are heading.
To echo a lot of the other posters. PLEASE give us something like port baseline or make some of our casts instant.

From a PVP perspective, the fact that other class's mobility is a huge defensive against us just feels terrible.
11/11/2018 08:14 AMPosted by Styxz
That said, KJC, Ice Flows, Norganon's Prowess, etc are not the answer. We don't need to be able to cast while moving.You do that and you make casting gratuitous and irrelevant.

Except for the facing issue and interrupts on school lockouts. Interrupts don't work on Hunters, for reasons, but it's a difference. And no one said "everything" as far as I know.
Your Chaos Bolts, Lava Bursts, Glacial Spikes, Ebonbolts, etc still being manual casts (like Aimed Shot) is fine.
People are just asking for the lowest dps filler spells, the Steady Shot equivalent.

11/11/2018 08:14 AMPosted by Styxz
What role do interrupts play in that world?

They still work and are devastating.

You have, by the way, presented no argument in favor of the garbage that WOD dumped on casters and healers and even specifically called it out as bad to start your post.
So your alternative is what precisely?

11/11/2018 08:14 AMPosted by Styxz
I mean the only thing we couldn't do was lust

We also could not move quickly, still can't, and the most commonly taken version of KJC slowed our movement speed. And you can come up with a list like that for most specs, especially melee.

Like I could list:
- Burst ST
- Burst AOE
- Mobility
- Even more mobility
- Self-sustain
- Short cooldown interrupt
- Short cooldown defensive
- Damage immunity
- AOE stun
- Multi-target slow

And be describing possibly a few different classes but meant Havoc. With a few small changes, this entire list also applies to Rogue Warrior Paladin Hunter Monk Mage...

So no, I don't get what you're on about. Stop enabling them to not let class design evolve for casters and healers by misrepresenting things so drastically.

11/11/2018 11:15 AMPosted by Slizzer
I'm curious what devs hope to solve with these proposed changes, as it ties nowhere with what players summed up so far in here.At least give us some context Blizz, maybe we are looking in a wrong direction, so we can provide feedback where you are heading.

If they're heading the wrong direction, as they have been since WOD, why would I want to provide feedback toward that direction.
They're wrong.
Their goals are wrong.
They need to be told they're wrong.
And people need to stop compromising just because they parse well, people need to look at the big picture and how and why it is wrong.
And get THAT fixed.

11/11/2018 12:42 PMPosted by Denter
To echo a lot of the other posters. PLEASE give us something like port baseline or make some of our casts instant.

No.
Mobile Shadow Bolt, Incinerate, etc for other classes too.
Stop giving them outs to stick to bad outdated design. We don't need Demonic Circle's obtuse garbage baseline, it's fine being a talent, an option.
WHAT WE NEED IS THE ABILITY TO PLAY THE GAME WHILE DOING INCREASINGLY FREQUENT AND DEMANDING RAID MECHANICS THE SAME WAY EVERY MELEE HAS GOTTEN A TRUCKLOAD OF QOL BUFFS AND HUNTER DID AS WELL.
Simple as that.

When you ask for thinks like baseline circle, you just give them excuses to keep making the WRONG changes that fix nothing on the fundamental design level that they screwed up in WOD.
Actually, it was. Ele Shaman too, Fire Mage enjoyed it a lot, Balance Druids' Lunar Shower was decent (came back in Legion and then got nerfed for no reason).
It was the best because you could ACTIVELY PARTICIPATE in the encounter WHILE dealing with or being targeted by mechanics. People will come up with a lot of half-baked or even just grossly inaccurate other reasons. Doesn't matter. This is the one that does.


If you added it in right now, it wouldn't make warlocks better fundamentally as a class than they were in MoP. You are greatly overestimating casting your filler spell on the move does for class design and functionality as a whole. The rotation and interaction is much more shallow than it was back then. Best example would be saying that BM hunters are the best designed class in the game because they can use all their abilities while moving, and that they are the pinnacle of class design.

Also doesn't even go into the balance issues between ranged and melee dps that come about because of this. A problem that showed up back then and why they changed this was because there was no point in melee. If range can move and cast they will always just be better than melee.

11/10/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Irsemployee
the depth of interaction between your spells and resources

Bunch of vague buzzword bollocks, mate. Destro now is the same as it was then,


Can't tell if your trying to troll or not. Bunch of vague buzzwords? Saying a spell interacts more with other spells and abilities is vague and nothing more the just a buzzword? Not even. It's anything but vague, when a spell does more with other spells, abilities, and situations, that means its more interactive.

Destro isn't anywhere close to what it was in mop. Chaos bolt right now hits like a wet noodle and destro damage is all based around a 3 min infernal CD, with damage outside of that phase being nothing special, in addition to CB costing 2 of your 5 resources limiting how many you can pool up. Destro in mop had CB hitting like an absolute truck, being the hardest hitting spell in the game by a lot. You could pool up to 4 casts of CB and use or save them for any moment in time you wanted. You as a player got to choose when you unloaded all of that damage based on the situations that you found yourself in. You were not stuck or forced into only getting to do big damage every 3 min, give the choice of when and how you wanted to interact with your environment. That alone is a significant increase in interactivity between a spells damage output, player choice, and environment. Then you also had the choice of shandowburn use with havoc, a mechanic that interacted and changed how you played drastically. havocing a boss and sniping low health mobs to hit both the boss and the mob for damage that when it crit hit about as hard as chaos bolt, but then you gained an extra ember from doing it, essentially turning 1 ember into 2 chaos bolts and 2 shadow burns.

Shadow burn interacted with havoc and low health mobs in a way to generate more resources and as a result, more damage then you would be able to do without it. And guess what, all of that interaction was baseline. You didn't have to pick and choose one interaction over the other. You got all of them, and your talent choices were all choices of different variations or methods of doing similar things, but to give you a choice of how you wanted to have your abilities interact with each other.

Interact is not a buzzword. Its a word with a very specific meaning that you are just choosing to ignore.

11/10/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Irsemployee
So how did MoP demo work?

It's called Shadow Priest. Demonic Fury is literally Insanity, Voidform is literally Metamorphosis.


They are not even remotely close or comparable in any way. Void Form is restrictive and limiting, only allowing you to enter at specific times. Metamorphosis left all of the choice to the player, and didn't punish you if you only stayed in to use half of your DF, as opposed to Void Form never having an iteration where leaving early didn't drastically hurt your dps.

Meta was something you could freely dance in and out of as you wished giving the player a order of magnitude more choice on how they wanted to interact with things around them.
11/10/2018 12:06 AMPosted by Irsemployee
These choices offered diversity and depth of interaction well beyond anything we see now in talent choices

See all your buzzword spam?
See how it conveys nothing whatsoever, and is honestly used to disguise being wrong.
We STILL have a passive talent Demon Skin competing with Pact and Burning Rush (which I'd be fine with being removed from the game for my mobile casting, since I'm fine being "immobile" when I can PLAY the game while moving for mechanic vomit). We also have Mortal Coil as another healing talent option which isn't even competing against other healing talents so that's basically free.

Stop with the buzzwords. Check your facts.
Criticize with specific details, make specific points.
Don't ask for "impactful" or "depth", ask for specific changes and then give specific reasons supporting those changes.


I think you are the one that needs to check their facts. Fun Fact, in mop you didn't have to choose between having a defensive ability or a movement ability. You didn't have to choose between CC and mobility. In mop Demon skin (soul leach) didn't compete with dark pact or burning rush. It was competing with 2 other methods of healing. Dark pack(sac pact) competed with 2 other defensive cds. Mortal coil didn't compete with demonic circle because that was baseline. instead it competed with 2 other forms of CC. And burning rush was the free talent to pick up in the raiding environment. As a result this gave the player more ways to interact with the environment. You didn't to pick do I want to interact with my environment by either moving around more or preventing damage, but instead how did i want to prevent damage and how did I want to move around. That is literally more interaction. 2 interactions instead of 1.
All of the depth that Irsemployee is pointing out is why I think Blizzard shoudl re-examine Locks during that time.

You can call it OP, and again it kind of was, but I really feel like the philosophy behind that design (as outlined by Xalnath) was pretty incredible. Could've easily been spread around to other classes.

Here's his (amazing) blog on how he approached locks in MoP - https://xelnath.com/2018/05/17/the-mop-warlock-the-harmony-of-chaos/

The problem we have now, imo, is that the rest of the game evolved as though this level of versatility did persist beyond MoP.

You've got these very mechanically demanding encounters everywhere from raids to M+, to even some regular world mobs.

I think there's plenty of room to re-introduce classes to the varied tools and increase the baseline depth in the gameplay without making everyone super powerful to the point they don't need groups (which I gather was the big concern with MoP class design).
WTB Kil'jaeden's Cunning (MoP) and a baseline interrupt. I'm getting sick of having to cancel my casts just so I can catch up with everyone else and not being able to contribute toward rotating interrupts with the group.

Also, making Dreadstalkers and Tyrant instant would cut back on Demo's ridiculous ramp up time significantly.
11/10/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Draboe

No more imps... we have enough


Never enough imps! ;)

As is, [Nether Portal] is only moderately more effective in low-movement single-target boss fights. There's so few of those this expansion, and so little additional benefit that there's simply no reason run with this talent.

Changing [Nether Portal] to be a steady supply of additional wild imps over its duration makes this talent choice useful not just for single-target damage. Heck even give it a 2sec cast time and 5 shard cost. I don't care, it'd still be great.

Demonic Tyrant: would have more wild imps to empower or consume
Trash Mob/AoE: [Implosion] would have more wild imps to consume.
Mobility: More imps = more chances for demonic core = more instant demonbolts

Combined with [Inner Demons], [Power Siphon] and [Soul Strike] ... one could replace almost all shadow bolt casts with instant demonbolts.
11/11/2018 08:14 AMPosted by Tragik
Inner demons should be baseline

Tyrant and dreadstalker should be instant.

From the shadows is terrible.

Felguard should either get pummel or axe toss should interrupt stun immune mobs.

Sac souls should be baseline and scale off mastery.

Felguard and voidwalker need significant survivability improvements.

Doom needs to do damage more quickly as well as having a chance to summon a doomguard with each ticket.


awesome suggestions above ^ please pay attn to this great feedback...

(I would add bilescourge bombers should not cost shards)
11/12/2018 04:42 PMPosted by Ditsi
11/11/2018 08:14 AMPosted by Tragik
Inner demons should be baseline

Tyrant and dreadstalker should be instant.

From the shadows is terrible.

Felguard should either get pummel or axe toss should interrupt stun immune mobs.

Sac souls should be baseline and scale off mastery.

Felguard and voidwalker need significant survivability improvements.

Doom needs to do damage more quickly as well as having a chance to summon a doomguard with each ticket.


awesome suggestions above ^ please pay attn to this great feedback...

(I would add bilescourge bombers should not cost shards)


I forgot that, 100% correct. Bilescourge needs to lose its shard cost to be a true choice for Sustained on demand AoE. It fights how Demo's AoE works with a shard cost, making it worse than a 2X HOG cycle.
Blizz, would it be possible to get a timeline on addressing some of these issues, or at least an agree/disagree from the dev side?

Mobility and the larger philosophy of it's role aside, when can we expect some back and forth on what seem to be the biggest concerns here in this thread:

- Baseline or Axe Toss interrupt, or make Demonic Strength and Soul Strike somehow work with any demon.

- Removing the cast time on Tyrant

- Bombers being too expensive for its damage (even post buff afaik)

- Instant stalkers baseline and a redesign of Demonic Calling and Master
Summoner

- Redesign of Doom (feels really troll with the chance on KB btw)

- Updating Burning Rush for BFA's lack of self healing

- Buffing From the Shadows so it's not such a dead talent

- Removing either shard cost or cast time on Vilefiend, and decreasing the time from summon to attack

- Buffing Darkfury to make Shadowfury instant or something more attractive than it is now

- Demonic Circle baseline

- Buffing Soul Conduit to be less of a dead talent for Demo

- Reducing the cool down on GFG

- Reevaluating whether Inner Demons should be baseline and replaced with another talent.

- Reevaluating whether Sacrificed Souls should be baseline (maybe baked into Mastery) and replaced with another, more interactive passive option

- Redesigning Demonic Consumption so it doesn't exacerbate our ramp issues

- Redesigning Nether Portal (beyond tuning) so that it has use cases for the vast majority of combat situations in the game, instead of (essentially) patchwork...unless you're going to reintroduce true patchwork fights back into encounter design
11/13/2018 04:57 AMPosted by Styxz
Blizz, would it be possible to get a timeline on addressing some of these issues, or at least an agree/disagree from the dev side?

Mobility and the larger philosophy of it's role aside, when can we expect some back and forth on what seem to be the biggest concerns here in this thread:

- Baseline or Axe Toss interrupt, or make Demonic Strength and Soul Strike somehow work with any demon.

- Removing the cast time on Tyrant

- Bombers being too expensive for its damage (even post buff afaik)

- Instant stalkers baseline and a redesign of Demonic Calling and Master
Summoner

- Redesign of Doom (feels really troll with the chance on KB btw)

- Updating Burning Rush for BFA's lack of self healing

- Buffing From the Shadows so it's not such a dead talent

- Removing either shard cost or cast time on Vilefiend, and decreasing the time from summon to attack

- Buffing Darkfury to make Shadowfury instant or something more attractive than it is now

- Demonic Circle baseline

- Buffing Soul Conduit to be less of a dead talent for Demo

- Reducing the cool down on GFG

- Reevaluating whether Inner Demons should be baseline and replaced with another talent.

- Reevaluating whether Sacrificed Souls should be baseline (maybe baked into Mastery) and replaced with another, more interactive passive option

- Redesigning Demonic Consumption so it doesn't exacerbate our ramp issues

- Redesigning Nether Portal (beyond tuning) so that it has use cases for the vast majority of combat situations in the game, instead of (essentially) patchwork...unless you're going to reintroduce true patchwork fights back into encounter design


I’m not so big on doom buff just because it would make it a manadory talent but all the rest a big fat yes
11/13/2018 06:14 AMPosted by Ryuku

I’m not so big on doom buff just because it would make it a manadory talent but all the rest a big fat yes


Doom is already the best talent on the row for raids. Giving it more use cases outside of raid bosses shouldn't break the balance. It should be an option in M+, and it shouldn't have the silly chance on KB to proc a summon.

Don't think I know anyone who has ever seen a Doomguard.
Has anyone compared demon armor and soul link?

Are those 125% armor increase from the new PvP talent better than soul link 20% damage reduction?

I'm under the impression that soul link is better simply because it protects against every kind of damage, not only physical.
11/12/2018 08:10 AMPosted by Styxz
Here's his (amazing) blog on how he approached locks in MoP - https://xelnath.com/2018/05/17/the-mop-warlock-the-harmony-of-chaos/


This dude is f-ing brilliant. I was reading some of his postmortems and some of the stuff he worked on is what I'd call some of the best stuff in the game. (Epic Druid Flight Form for one)

They screwed the pooch when they let this dude go.

Sorry for the de-rail... So with that...

BASELINE INTERRUPT!!!!
11/13/2018 04:57 AMPosted by Styxz
Blizz, would it be possible to get a timeline on addressing some of these issues, or at least an agree/disagree from the dev side?

Mobility and the larger philosophy of it's role aside, when can we expect some back and forth on what seem to be the biggest concerns here in this thread:

- Baseline or Axe Toss interrupt, or make Demonic Strength and Soul Strike somehow work with any demon.

- Removing the cast time on Tyrant

- Bombers being too expensive for its damage (even post buff afaik)

- Instant stalkers baseline and a redesign of Demonic Calling and Master
Summoner

- Redesign of Doom (feels really troll with the chance on KB btw)

- Updating Burning Rush for BFA's lack of self healing

- Buffing From the Shadows so it's not such a dead talent

- Removing either shard cost or cast time on Vilefiend, and decreasing the time from summon to attack

- Buffing Darkfury to make Shadowfury instant or something more attractive than it is now

- Demonic Circle baseline

- Buffing Soul Conduit to be less of a dead talent for Demo

- Reducing the cool down on GFG

- Reevaluating whether Inner Demons should be baseline and replaced with another talent.

- Reevaluating whether Sacrificed Souls should be baseline (maybe baked into Mastery) and replaced with another, more interactive passive option

- Redesigning Demonic Consumption so it doesn't exacerbate our ramp issues

- Redesigning Nether Portal (beyond tuning) so that it has use cases for the vast majority of combat situations in the game, instead of (essentially) patchwork...unless you're going to reintroduce true patchwork fights back into encounter design


Doom needs to be baseline and Soul Conduid just needs to be scrapped and replaced. Inner Demons also needs to be baseline. So really we need several new talents.

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