does the alliance lose racial leaders?

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So in 8.1 we basically have another horde leader killed off and our navy sunk by Kul'tiran military grade plot armor and just to spite us Jaina escapes without us even capturing her. When do our racial leaders get to shine and make a difference instead of being out smarted and over powered by the most annoyingly written and unbearable characters in the game( Jaina and Tyrande)
The alliance have lost plenty of leaders, Varian died on the broken shore!
And magni! He's NEUTRAL. That's worse than dead somehow.
So is khadgar!

And...
um...
The arch bishop?

EDIT: Fandrel! Yeah that guy was a beloved alliance character before he went evil during vanilla right?!
Bolvar also died.
11/10/2018 01:59 PMPosted by Murdra
Bolvar also died.

Well... sorta.

  • Bolvar died-but-not-really, then became the Lich King. Of course, Varian had already returned at that point.
  • Staghelm was revealed as evil and eventually killed, but Tyrande was always there and he departed as Malfurion returned.
  • Magni was put on ice, and is now alive again, but not an Alliance leader.
  • Varian died, but Anduin had already gotten significant characterization to replace him.


So...yes, the Alliance loses leaders. Usually it's part of a larger plot, and they have a ready replacement waiting.
Alliance characters either become elevated in status to become more relevant to the story ala Bolvar and Magni or their deaths are well planned and there is a replacement waiting for them that fits perfectly in the narrative like Fandral and Varian.

Horde leaders get killed off in unceremonious ways like Cairne and Vol'jin and often don't have a replacement lined up due to a lack of exposure of that race like with Vol'jin and Garrosh. When they do have a replacement said replacement proceeds to be narratively unimportant like Baine.

There are some exceptions to these rules, but this is generally how it's done for the different sides.
11/10/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Kisin
Alliance characters either become elevated in status to become more relevant to the story ala Bolvar and Magni or their deaths are well planned and there is a replacement waiting for them that fits perfectly in the narrative like Fandral and Varian.

Horde leaders get killed off in unceremonious ways like Cairne and Vol'jin and often don't have a replacement lined up due to a lack of exposure of that race like with Vol'jin and Garrosh. When they do have a replacement said replacement proceeds to be narratively unimportant like Baine.

There are some exceptions to these rules, but this is generally how it's done for the different sides.


Arguably, Vol’jin was elevated in the same manner as Magni.
11/10/2018 02:02 PMPosted by Balloonfish
So...yes, the Alliance loses leaders. Usually it's part of a larger plot, and they have a ready replacement waiting.
This. More often they're lost to neutrality than death. For once in BfA we're actually gaining one of those leaders back. A shame the rest like Khadgar can't drop the act and realize Sylvanas' Horde will kill all of them too eventually.

11/10/2018 02:12 PMPosted by Niingdorei
Arguably, Vol’jin was elevated in the same manner as Magni.
Yes, but as with Thrall he's still allowed to care for the Horde, whereas Magni and Malfurion before him were forced to watch Alliance die to "maintain neutrality." Funny how that works.
11/10/2018 01:47 PMPosted by Galien
out smarted and over powered by the most annoyingly written and unbearable characters in the game( Jaina and Tyrande)

I think you misspelled Anduin and Nathanos.
The alternate Velen sacrificed himself...does that count?
11/10/2018 02:12 PMPosted by Niingdorei
11/10/2018 02:10 PMPosted by Kisin
Alliance characters either become elevated in status to become more relevant to the story ala Bolvar and Magni or their deaths are well planned and there is a replacement waiting for them that fits perfectly in the narrative like Fandral and Varian.

Horde leaders get killed off in unceremonious ways like Cairne and Vol'jin and often don't have a replacement lined up due to a lack of exposure of that race like with Vol'jin and Garrosh. When they do have a replacement said replacement proceeds to be narratively unimportant like Baine.

There are some exceptions to these rules, but this is generally how it's done for the different sides.


Arguably, Vol’jin was elevated in the same manner as Magni.

We'll see how that goes, a part of me worries he might just be pushed into the background. Although it's nice to see we at least get a spirit back...sorta.

11/10/2018 02:15 PMPosted by Jerolan
11/10/2018 02:02 PMPosted by Balloonfish
So...yes, the Alliance loses leaders. Usually it's part of a larger plot, and they have a ready replacement waiting.
This. More often they're lost to neutrality than death. For once in BfA we're actually gaining one of those leaders back. A shame the rest like Khadgar can't drop the act and realize Sylvanas' Horde will kill all of them too eventually.

11/10/2018 02:12 PMPosted by Niingdorei
Arguably, Vol’jin was elevated in the same manner as Magni.
Yes, but as with Thrall he's still allowed to care for the Horde, whereas Magni and Malfurion before him were forced to watch Alliance die to "maintain neutrality." Funny how that works.

Thrall hasn't fought the alliance since they tried to kill him in cata.
I would rather have characters go neutral and do nothing involving faction conflicts than have them be a part of the horde and do nothing involving faction conflicts. I mean baine banished his own people for trying to get revenge. What the hell?
Alliance heroes either die heroes or live long enough to go neutral.
Horde heroes die heroes or live long enough to get their turn at the villain bat.

We had an entire expansion about wiping out old horde warchiefs. That's sad.
11/10/2018 02:37 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Alliance heroes either die heroes or live long enough to go neutral.
Horde heroes die heroes or live long enough to get their turn at the villain bat.


I'd honestly say both are bad outcomes in their own way rather than saying one is worse than the other and preaching it as gospel but I already understand that's the inevitable direction that this thread is going to go.
11/10/2018 02:12 PMPosted by Niingdorei


Arguably, Vol’jin was elevated in the same manner as Magni.


Maybe. We'll see how relevant his story will be going forward.

Even then though, Blizzard didn't bother to replace him with a new troll leader and still haven't gotten around to coming up with anything. To me this is an inexcusable oversight. It's ridiculous. There is no good reason to not at least go "Master Gadrin has taken over the roll of leader".
Rastakhan had so many deathflags attached to him I'd be hard pressed to call him a Horde Faction leader. Nearly every line of dialogue screamed "Imma die so my Daughter takes my place!" Hell, when you make a deal to tie your bloodline to ANYTHING, you've essentially made yourself expendable if you have offspring.

As for Alliance leaders, are you talking about DURING WoW, or BEFORE WoW in Warcraft? In WoW Admiral Taylor died (and since he was bound to a 30 year old garrison his spirit probably finally passed on). Grand Admiral Jes-Tereth will die in the upcoming Zuldazar raid. King Varian Wyrnn of course.

So yes, the Alliance has characters that die. The big difference however is that they traditionally have replacements set to go before they do. Its why Genn dying in BfA has a pretty good chance, since he's got Tess and 2 Crowley's to take up the mantel. The Horde is lacking in the "replacements" department.
There is nothing wrong with characters who want nothing to do with bashing their head against the other faction for eternity.
11/10/2018 02:12 PMPosted by Niingdorei
Arguably, Vol’jin was elevated in the same manner as Magni.

Maybe, but even if he does end up that way, it was only after (justified) fan outrage. I guarantee you they didn't plan on this at Legion launch and were initially playing "loa said so" completely straight.
11/10/2018 02:46 PMPosted by Droité
As for Alliance leaders, are you talking about DURING WoW, or BEFORE WoW in Warcraft? In WoW Admiral Taylor died (and since he was bound to a 30 year old garrison his spirit probably finally passed on). Grand Admiral Jes-Tereth will die in the upcoming Zuldazar raid. King Varian Wyrnn of course.
inb4 those don't count because they're talking about "racial leaders." There's a reason that all the Alliance have left is Superman tier characters, the Horde* has pretty much killed the rest.

*Including the Iron and Old Hordes.
Do people want the Alliance to lose leaders for parity? Putting parity over story quality is bad writing.

Perhaps it's unfair, but the Alliance is the stable, predictable and boring faction and it makes sense that they won't often lose a leader (and when they do, there are usually a number of good replacements waiting in the wings).

The Horde story focuses too much on a very small number of characters, and Blizzard fail to write other characters in the same race so there's no easy replacement for (e.g.) Vol'jin or... whoever leads the orcs now.
11/10/2018 02:50 PMPosted by Jerolan
inb4 those don't count because they're talking about "racial leaders." There's a reason that all the Alliance have left is Superman tier characters, the Horde* has pretty much killed the rest.

*Including the Iron and Old Hordes.


The thread literally says racial leaders.
Ok next patch, Varian is raised back from the dead to serve Sylvanas after she somehow collects his ashes, then he kills Anduin and Valen. We can't have the Horde upset, that's all that's left of the player base.
11/10/2018 02:37 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Alliance heroes either die heroes or live long enough to go neutral.
Horde heroes die heroes or live long enough to get their turn at the villain bat.


I'd honestly say both are bad outcomes in their own way rather than saying one is worse than the other and preaching it as gospel but I already understand that's inevitable direction that this thread is going to go.

Neutral heroes at least have a place in the story still. You may call it bad because you think it diminishes their character, but people who hate the faction conflict just see it as them being the voice of reason. Horde heroes being turned into villains and killed? There's no positive spin there. No one is like, at least garrosh really tried to get rid of all the dirty BE and Trolls!

Ok there are some like that... But some alliance call for mass genocide on the horde. We both have baggage for sure.

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