does the alliance lose racial leaders?

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11/10/2018 02:56 PMPosted by Granfaloon
But some alliance call for mass genocide on the horde.
And those characters are regularly considered the Alliance's "bad guys" who we're forced to oppose even though the Horde goes out of their way to justify those characters' hatreds. Usually within less than a patch or two. Look at how Jaina went from "Beware me" to "Oh they're sad let's leave them alone for a little bit" over the course of one patch.

The Horde has it's edgelords that really want to be the nu-Scourge and eat babies, and they get that. The Alliance's edgelords never get to hunt greenskins for long without getting chided for it.
11/10/2018 02:56 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Neutral heroes at least have a place in the story still.


Ya, it's especially nice when they look down on and finger wag the Alliance for having understandable grievances towards the Horde and that such stories involving those neutral characters try to be some Aesop about how terrible and mean having grievances are no matter how legitimate they might be.

11/10/2018 02:56 PMPosted by Granfaloon
But some alliance call for mass genocide on the horde


Only after the Horde successfully went through with committing exactly that on the Alliance and even then, you're misrepresenting a desire for retribution for those who have been wronged as a call for genocide.
11/10/2018 02:51 PMPosted by Jandarus
Do people want the Alliance to lose leaders for parity? Putting parity over story quality is bad writing.


Personally I'd settle for Blizzard just... Not killing off the Horde leadership constantly and then never bothering to add new blood to their ranks, resulting in an ever diminishing pool of characters to be invested in.
11/10/2018 02:02 PMPosted by Balloonfish
So...yes, the Alliance loses leaders. Usually it's part of a larger plot, and they have a ready replacement waiting.


Which is so odd considering Blizzard writers apparently love writing Horde storylines more then Alliance. You would think if that were the case, they would do a better job making sure all the Horde races are well represented by a leader.
11/10/2018 03:02 PMPosted by Rendford
11/10/2018 02:56 PMPosted by Granfaloon
Neutral heroes at least have a place in the story still.


Ya, it's especially nice when they look down on and finger wag the Alliance for having understandable grievances towards the Horde and that such stories involving those neutral characters try to be some Aesop about how terrible and mean having grievances are no matter how legitimate they might be.

11/10/2018 02:56 PMPosted by Granfaloon
But some alliance call for mass genocide on the horde


Only after the Horde successfully went through with committing exactly that on the Alliance and even then, you're misrepresenting a desire for retribution for those who have been wronged as a call for genocide.


11/10/2018 02:59 PMPosted by Jerolan
11/10/2018 02:56 PMPosted by Granfaloon
But some alliance call for mass genocide on the horde.
And those characters are regularly considered the Alliance's "bad guys" who we're forced to oppose even though the Horde goes out of their way to justify those characters' hatreds. Usually within less than a patch or two. Look at how Jaina went from "Beware me" to "Oh they're sad let's leave them alone for a little bit" over the course of one patch.

The Horde has it's edgelords that really want to be the nu-Scourge and eat babies, and they get that. The Alliance's edgelords never get to hunt greenskins for long without getting chided for it.

I was more of refering to the playerbase, but I am sorry you don't get to see what life is like without the moral highground. I thought pre theramore jaina was a good character. Now I don't know what to think about her, but I know that's still better than what Garrosh became.

You might not see neutral alliance heroes as alliance, but I don't see why I should even listen to magni or khadgar, except both make very good points about there being bigger threats. Meanwhile baine knows there are bigger threats and is more worried about horde honor. So our heroes are either evil villains in themaking or too stupid to break away from the conflict to try and save the world.

That's probably why most of if not all of legion was us following around alliance leader who should have shot us on sight.
Carne blood hoof
Garrosh
Vol'jin
Doom hammer
Grom
Kael'thalas sun strider (because why not right?)
Saurfang's son
King Rastakhan
Alternate universe Grom( because seriously we can't let these guys have a meaningful lore character back)

Varian
Bol'var(doesn't count because he is the current lich king)

The board kind of speaks for itself doesn't it? Thrall somehow lost his mojo because he feels bad (amazing writing by the way) meanwhile the sons of lothar survive a planet literally exploding. Can we like I don't know get a win for once?
11/10/2018 02:33 PMPosted by Tilgath
11/10/2018 01:47 PMPosted by Galien
out smarted and over powered by the most annoyingly written and unbearable characters in the game( Jaina and Tyrande)

I think you misspelled Anduin and Nathanos.
hmmm okay you got me there but they're still pretty annoying.
11/10/2018 03:46 PMPosted by Galien
Can we like I don't know get a win for once?


Why treat it like a competition though?
Alliance loses cities, Horde loses characters.
If its not to death, its to neutrality.

Varian - Died on the Broken Shore.
Archbishop Benedictus - Villain Bat & Killed in the Hour of Twilight. (Poorly done too.)
Bolvar Fordragon - "killed" and then assumes place as the Lich King.
Magni Bronzebeard- Petrified, but now serves Azeroth and takes no place in this war
Prophet Velen - Constantly takes neutral positions but is leader due to gameplay reasons.
Fandral Staghelm - Villain Bat & Killed in the Firelands.
Gelbin Mekketorque - Frozen permanently in 8.1

In accordance to the Horde's leader losses:

Vol'jin - Killed by the Legion
Thrall - Assumes Earth Warder / World Shaman
Cairne - Killed by Garrosh through Magatha's schemes
Garrosh - Hit with Villain Bat & Killed in Draenor
King Rastakhan - Killed in the Siege of Dazar'alor in 8.1
AU-Durotan - Killed by the Lightbound offscreen

However, that's just the racial leaders. The Horde never go neutral in the interests of Azeroth beyond Thrall. The comparison of NPCs killed by enemy factions is WAAAAAY askewed to the Alliance with multiple cities and populations destroyed with nothing to show.

Southshore NPCs - Killed and raised into Undeath, and later killed on Fenris Isle
Theramore NPCs - Killed in Theramore, and its survivors assumed killed in SoO as none return.
Ashenvale NPCs - All killed in the War of Thorns
Darkshore NPCs - All killed in the War of Thorns
Nearly every Darnassus NPC - Killed in the Burning of Teldrassil

I'm sure there's more, but the Horde don't nearly amount to the same.
11/10/2018 02:53 PMPosted by Kisin
11/10/2018 02:50 PMPosted by Jerolan
inb4 those don't count because they're talking about "racial leaders." There's a reason that all the Alliance have left is Superman tier characters, the Horde* has pretty much killed the rest.

*Including the Iron and Old Hordes.


The thread literally says racial leaders.


I'd rather we sacrifice Crowley, and 2 Dwarven racial leaders (not Moira) just to get back Taylor. Racial leaders are great and all, but Taylor was the closest thing Alliance players had to a recurring faction companion, especially in MoP but ofc in Cata.

Blizzard, in their infinite wisdom, killed him off in the most insulting way. I'd rather we have a bunch of low tier characters that were allowed their time to shine each expansion than a soap opera between faction leaders. Imagine if Voss or better yet Liadrin was killed in a hastily rewritten Drustvar side quest in 8.0, which was so shodily assembled half the players mistook it as Blizzard's attempt at comedy. They did that to one of the few good Alliance characters and its awful.
11/10/2018 03:46 PMPosted by Galien
because seriously we can't let these guys have a meaningful lore character back
Because that would have been incredibly stupid and would have made me question further still why Maraad and Taylor had to die in some !@#$ AU.

Although maybe you could convince me if it meant that a more honorable Grom opposed to touching felblood at all costs got beat down in round two with Cenarius.
11/10/2018 04:15 PMPosted by Kinria
Theramore NPCs - Killed in Theramore, and its survivors assumed killed in SoO as none return


You can rescue 2 Theramore NPC's during the Dark Shaman trash. Just most of the time, they die to aoe abilities because they are forced to fight you until you kill the local overseer.
11/10/2018 01:59 PMPosted by Murdra
Bolvar also died.
Ah yes, Bolvar, the 15th most important Human leader. A great loss compared to the Horde losing their Warchief every time someone sneezes.
11/10/2018 06:08 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
Ah yes, Bolvar, the 15th most important Human leader. A great loss compared to the Horde losing their Warchief every time someone sneezes.
You don't have to underplay it just to make our list shorter. We're all willing to admit the Horde loses more A-listers, but Bolvar was the human leader for two expansions.
11/10/2018 03:46 PMPosted by Galien

Kael'thalas sun strider (because why not right?)


Because he never was in the Horde, period. You'd have better success arguing he was an Alliance leader, since he was actually in the Alliance at some point. If you count Kael'thas as Horde, you might as well count Arthas too since he was the Lich King and thus the Forsaken served him as the Scourge at one point.

Because why not, right?

Saurfang's son


Not a racial leader.

Varian
Bol'var(doesn't count because he is the current lich king)


If you're going to include the AU like you did with Grom, put Velen on the Alliance side.

There's also Archbiship Benedictus and Fandral Staghelm for the Alliance.
So the shifting goalpost is now lesser characters? Because the Horde do lose minor characters too. Some of which we personally have to kill.

I'd like to have Dranosh back. Or Nazgrim, who was stolen and made into a DK. Or maybe Blizzard could have developed Zuni into an actual character instead of killing him off at the end of the starter quests.

Or how about we talk about the Horde characters that got turned into raid fodder before they even got to join the current Horde like Zul'jin and Kael'thas.

Blizzard isn't exactly merciful to our minor characters either. Even our iconic heroes from the older games are just there to be loot pinatas.
11/10/2018 06:08 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
11/10/2018 01:59 PMPosted by Murdra
Bolvar also died.
Ah yes, Bolvar, the 15th most important Human leader. A great loss compared to the Horde losing their Warchief every time someone sneezes.


11/10/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Anyaceltica
Alliance loses cities, Horde loses characters.
11/10/2018 06:30 PMPosted by Kisin
Or how about we talk about the Horde characters that got turned into raid fodder before they even got to join the current Horde like Zul'jin and Kael'thas.
I don't know if you play Heroes of the Storm at all but the way Zul'jin talks there he would never have joined the Horde after they let the blood elves in. Besides, counting Old Horde and Alliance of Lordaeron heroes is when this debate always gets stupid.

The Horde... when you choose the elves, you choose to make enemy of Zul'jin!
https://heroesofthestorm.gamepedia.com/Zul%27jin/Quotes
11/10/2018 04:02 PMPosted by Anyaceltica
Alliance loses cities, Horde loses characters.

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