does the alliance lose racial leaders?

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11/10/2018 06:41 PMPosted by Jerolan
I don't know if you play Heroes of the Storm at all but the way Zul'jin talks there he would never have joined the Horde after they let the blood elves in. Besides, counting Old Horde and Alliance of Lordaeron heroes is when this debate always gets stupid.


I know his reasoning for not joining, but it could always have been written differently. The Horde do not have a large pool of "not pure evil" characters from WC1 and WC2, so just killing him off in a raid felt like a wasted potential.

Especially when we didn't get Kael'thas either. We didn't just lose Zul'jin in favor of another powerful and important lore figure, we got neither.
Just want to point out, this is now the second thread in a week focused on either the lack of Alliance racial leader losses, or actively looking to turn Alliance racial leaders into villains for raidloot.

This in my opinion speaks to the zero-sum nature of the faction war. Horde players (with justification) are tired of losing their stars to death. And so have sought ways to argue for an “evening of the scales”.

This also feeds into Alliance resentment, as Alliance players see that they have lost plenty (See cities argument) while the Horde as an organization is absolved for their aggression because all blame is placed on those same leaders, not the Horde itself.

Just some observations, carry on.
11/10/2018 06:15 PMPosted by Cirno
Because he never was in the Horde, period. You'd have better success arguing he was an Alliance leader, since he was actually in the Alliance at some point. If you count Kael'thas as Horde, you might as well count Arthas too since he was the Lich King and thus the Forsaken served him as the Scourge at one point.

Because why not, right?


I knew the Kael dismissal point was going to be brought up eventually when someone mentioned him. But it doesn't make this situation any better, I'd say it makes it worse.

Our actual leader and father of the Blood Elves was villain batted so fast we can't even consider him part of our faction.
Kael would be considered an Alliance character more than an Horde one.
11/10/2018 07:30 PMPosted by Zerde
Kael would be considered an Alliance character more than an Horde one.


In the same way Sylvanas is an Alliance character, sure.

They were Alliance. Then they weren't. Now they are Horde.

Kael'thas is the founder of the blood elves. He is a blood elf character to his roots. Blood elves are Horde, therefore Kael'thas is Horde. Or in this case would have been Horde if not for Blizzard smashing his gorgeous face in with the villain bat.
To be honest I've been willing to concede Kael'thas to the Alliance for awhile now. Mostly because of how bad it makes Blizzard look.
Alliance loses cities, Horde loses characters.


Cities uh?! Did some Alliance capital become a siege raid that had the bonus of killing the local leader?

I assume that the Alliance lost more cities, and lost civilians in the frightening way many times. I can remember three cities that put the Alliance at the head of the Horde at the moment: Theramore, Gilneas and that gnomeregan that was not compromised by issues involving the Horde - that I know the problems over there must be resolved by then, maybe I'd be in the game if the developers did not look so... - ?

~The Horde has some equivalent of Theramore - a town that was not a capital of a race in particular and which had a reasonable amount of useful npcs, soldiers and civillians - ??~
Meanwhile, most of the races populations we see in the Horde does not seem to be so engaged in civilian activities, they are helping the military forces even indirectly (with the exception of Suramar, Mulgore and maybe Zuldazar).

Since we are talking about Alliance leaders we are pleased that with a raid full of angry hordies with the loss of Rastakhan not being able to kill even that gnome who never gives a face, Jaina then...

The Horde lose leaders without a satisfactory preparation in the plot, lose cities and do not gain an entire patch of revenge even in the lost territory by the most disadvantageous that the situation is to relieve some of the losses.

The Horde do not have good leadership substitutions , for example, Garrosh after Thrall, and Sylvanas after Vol'jin's death, sometimes they do not even have substitutions, and we see how blatant this is when the site itself says darkspear trolls does not currently have leadership. Even Saurfang seems to be fighting on his own, not for his people or only for them. On the race's page Thrall still appears as some kind of leader, but he is not even actually in the Horde so far... Even the Mag'har have just lost their leader, killed by Yrel, and we have to deal with yet another entirely new character with no tradition in the current story - she reminds me of Talanji's situation.

If Blizzard loves to write the Horde, I can not imagine what it would be like if they hated it.

I do not want the Alliance having to lose leaders randomly or go through the junk that the plot of the Horde had to pass, I just wanted them to make a good story that did not seem so disadvantageous compared to the opposite faction, and without having to punish the Alliance for it.
11/10/2018 02:44 PMPosted by Kisin
Blizzard didn't bother to replace him with a new troll leader and still haven't gotten around to coming up with anything. To me this is an inexcusable oversight. It's ridiculous. There is no good reason to not at least go "Master Gadrin has taken over the roll of leader".
I’m a lil’ late to the party but, I want to toss in something, or rather probe you for a thought, Kisin.

My friend brought this up the other day; It seems like Blizzard wants to roll up all the trolls into one big ‘faction’, as we see in Troll-Dadking’s funeral that a majority of the troll tribes are there, all underneath Talanji.

Just wanted to know what you think, not to side track this thread of course.
11/10/2018 06:08 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
11/10/2018 01:59 PMPosted by Murdra
Bolvar also died.
Ah yes, Bolvar, the 15th most important Human leader. A great loss compared to the Horde losing their Warchief every time someone sneezes.
Maybe stop appointing everyone and their genocidal dog as warchief? Give up the dumb blood oath so you stop having a moral crisis when the genocidal dog starts up his genocidal campaign? Try out democracy or something?
Kael'thas is the founder of the blood elves. He is a blood elf character to his roots. Blood elves are Horde, therefore Kael'thas is Horde. Or in this case would have been Horde if not for Blizzard smashing his gorgeous face in with the villain bat.


And Kael was a prince to both high elves and void elves!(thanks to void elves the Alliance has as much claim to that particular lore!) His entire campaign in warcraft 3 was the "Alliance campaign" he also had nothing but vitol for the Horde and probably never changed that view in BC.
11/10/2018 08:26 PMPosted by Lëora
I’m a lil’ late to the party but, I want to toss in something, or rather probe you for a thought, Kisin.

My friend brought this up the other day; It seems like Blizzard wants to roll up all the trolls into one big ‘faction’, as we see in Troll-Dadking’s funeral that a majority of the troll tribes are there, all underneath Talanji.

Just wanted to know what you think, not to side track this thread of course.


That is a possibility. I'm not sure how I personally feel about it though. The distinction between tribes and troll races is one of the most interesting attributes of the troll species. Even if we do end up with a single troll empire under Talanji having distinct troll leaders for each tribe is a necessity. At least in my mind.

Even if they are mostly background characters and Talanji becomes the face of all troll-kind there should at least be an Amani, Gurubashi, and Farakki leader, as well as a Darkspear leader since they have grown so much since being under the sway of the Gurubashi that they can be described as a distinct cultural group.

So I'd still say someone needs to lead the Darkspear tribe. At the very least someone needs to sit in the Darkspear's seat of the new Zanchuli Council if Blizzard wants to make a united troll faction within the Horde.


And Kael was a prince to both high elves and void elves!(thanks to void elves the Alliance has as much claim to that particular lore!) His entire campaign in warcraft 3 was the "Alliance campaign" he also had nothing but vitol for the Horde and probably never changed that view in BC.


The vast majority of high elves became blood elves following Kael'thas' footsteps. The void elves are just a small splinter faction of blood elves. If Kael'thas is a blood elf icon then he is a Horde icon.

Also, the Alliance burned their bridge with Kael'thas with Garithos.
Kisin, by the same token that the Alliance burned their bridge with Garithos, the Horde burned their bridge by accepting the Blood elves with Zul'jin. If it is good for the goose it is good for the gander and all that.
11/10/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Saiphas
Kisin, by the same token that the Alliance burned their bridge with Garithos, the Horde burned their bridge by accepting the Blood elves with Zul'jin. If it is good for the goose it is good for the gander and all that.


Sure, I get that. But the thing is the Horde didn't actually get either major lore character. They both got slammed with a villain bat and turned into raid fodder.
The Alliance loses leaders, but usually to make way for their already groomed replacement, and often they get better and come back as neutral quest givers.

The Horde might finally be getting that treatment if Vol'jin is any indication, but that remains to be seen.
The vast majority of high elves became blood elves following Kael'thas' footsteps. The void elves are just a small splinter faction of blood elves. If Kael'thas is a blood elf icon then he is a Horde icon.

Also, the Alliance burned their bridge with Kael'thas with Garithos.


Kael was NEVER Horde. Kael WAS Alliance. Who care if their are less void elves/high elves, Kael, is as much connected to them as the blood elves. Hell, Terenas was once the leader of the people of Lordearon. That does not make him a Horde icon.
Horde loses leaders.
Alliance loses cities.
No one is happy.

I made a Haiku.
I'd rather that the Horde stop losing characters than that the Alliance lose more. Starting with vindicating/redeeming Sylvanas and having some reconciliation between her and the Baine/Saurfang wing.
11/10/2018 09:40 PMPosted by Zerde

Kael was NEVER Horde. Kael WAS Alliance. Who care if their are less void elves/high elves, Kael, is as much connected to them as the blood elves. Hell, Terenas was once the leader of the people of Lordearon. That does not make him a Horde icon.


He was Alliance. Then he wasn't.

Look, I don't really care about this weird "No, he's MINE!" argument you're trying to make. It's distracting from my original argument and adds nothing of value to the discussion.

The point is Kael'thas is an iconic WC3 hero to a Horde race that we never got to enjoy within WoW because he was immediately hit with the villain bat, and that wasn't fair to the people who loved the blood elf campaign in WC3.
After and during BC the trends between alliance and horde were set. If you're horde, you lose a leader every expansion if not more and have the political stability of, well, a horde.

The Alliance is safe and well put togeather that doesnt lose leadership easily and if a leader dies has a back up on the wings.

I rather not lose leaders because the horde does. I chose this faction because of the stability. If I want a dysfunctional self destructive family, I'll go to the horde.
It’s very hard to advance a character’s story though without personal conflict. Jaina: lots of character development in BfA. Tyrande will be getting the same. Velen got a lot too in Legion because of his conflict.

Anduin and Genn: absolutely nothing and their characters have not changed one bit since pre-patch.

Also, the Alliance HAS had conflict before. Like in Cata with the Dwarves. It’s just that since then they have not for the most part and as such character development has been stop and go.

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