does the alliance lose racial leaders?

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you can have jaina's head after she destroy a horde city.
the same with any alliance character that you want to kill.

that's what parity means, come on.

you want that not only we lose cities but also leaders? No.
Voljin was killed in legion ,but hey look, he is coming back.

i really don't mind what alliance characters you kill as long as those characters does a huge amount of damage to the horde.
tyrande is my last hope, i guess.
11/10/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Etheldald
you can have jaina's head after she destroy a horde city.
Ok, so if Jaina destroys GLORIOUS Stonard, the mirror city of Theramore, you'd be fine with the Horde killing her right?
11/10/2018 10:31 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
Ok, so if Jaina destroys GLORIOUS Stonard, the mirror city of Theramore, you'd be find with the Horde killing her right?

No,if we are truly talking about parity then i say that we also escalate it to a racial capital.

what, you don't like the escalation? because if i remember correctly it was the escalation from taurajo, so the obvious answer is that the alliance pays with the same coin and escalate it more.

fair is fair after all. because that what people in this thread want right?
11/10/2018 10:37 PMPosted by Etheldald
what, you don't like the escalation?
I don't like moving the goal posts. You say she can die when there's parity. I point out crappy Stonard would be parity for Theramore, then you demand escalation.

Meh. I'm going to bed.
Let us kill Jaina and we'll let you kill Sylvanas. Fair trade, I would say.
11/10/2018 10:44 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
I don't like moving the goal posts. You say she can die when there's parity. I point out crappy Stonard would be parity for Theramore, then you demand escalation.


theramore was escalation, so the obvious answer is to escalate it more.
then it would be fair.
i vote for flood thunder buff,then you can have your kill.
11/10/2018 10:50 PMPosted by Ràltar
Let us kill Jaina and we'll let you kill Sylvanas. Fair trade, I would say.


oh no my dear, first she needs to do something at the same escale as teldrassil.
that is the reason why horde characters die in the first place, they are villains.
11/10/2018 10:02 PMPosted by Etheldald
you can have jaina's head after she destroy a horde city.
Ok, so if Jaina destroys GLORIOUS Stonard, the mirror city of Theramore, you'd be find with the Horde killing her right?


Is... is Stonard even still around? Didn't it get steamrolled in Cata? Or was that one of those weird chains where the outcome is different depending on your faction and nothing is canon?

Also I'm seeing some serious stretching in some of these comments here, people bringing up Grom and Doomhammer as casualties, when the focus seems to be on WoW losses. If we were to delve into Warcraft in general, well... that'd be a mess of losses on both sides.

If we're going purely by faction leaders, then depending on what happens with Vol'jin down the line, it's two dead Warchiefs to one dead King of Stormwind, with the clear potential for one of the former to come back which would make it a one to one even deal.

If we start to stretch it to racial leaders, then again, the Horde ties with the Alliance with the death of Cairne, who had an immediate replacement in the form of his son, versus Fandral and his death/villain batting, who was also instantly replaced when Mafurion woke from his forcibly induced nap.

Now, if we stretch it even further to "relevant and influential member of a given race", then it becomes kind of mired in weirdness because quite frankly, outside of racial leaders most races don't have such a thing. Humans have them, night elves have a few as well, orcs have Eitrigg and Saurfang, though the latter's been taken by the Horde in general... Overlord Cromush is another that springs to mind, and maybe Drek'thar if he's even still alive. Draenei don't, since we lost Maraad to WoD, unless we count the allied races, which I frankly don't.

Really all depends on how you break these things down, though I'm willing to admit that orcs have lost the most WoW era characters (Garrosh, Nazgrim, Zaela, Draenosh) it seems to me that the reason behind that is because there were just so many of them, though things have gone a bit overkill, on that I agree. I'd include Bolvar on the list of killed off racial leaders for humans, personally, because for all intents and purposes the character as he was is dead, in the same as old Nazgrim, who isn't exactly going to be riding to the rescue with a Horde banner flying any time soon.
Hate to say it like this but our leaders aren't involved enough in the story to merit death. They just sit there... mulling about until Horde story needs developing.

Leaders we have 'lost'

Bolvar (To undeath)
Varian
Magni (To neutrality... would rather him be dead)

What they should do:

If something were to happen to Tyrande and Malfurion (thought of this when both didn't do anything) was allow Jarod Shadowsong and Shandris Feathermoon (or just Shandris) to become the new leader of the Night Elves.

It'd also be nice to see the Draenei acquire a new Triumvirate with Velen and two other Draenei (though I don't know if anything did develop like that in WoD or Legion)
I can think of one I wish we'd lose. His name starts with an A.

Also if I were a Tauren I'd take no leader over Baine.
The point is Kael'thas is an iconic WC3 hero to a Horde race that we never got to enjoy within WoW because he was immediately hit with the villain bat, and that wasn't fair to the people who loved the blood elf campaign in WC3.


If you want to talk about fairness, why should the ALLIANCE campaign be dedicated to how a character defects from the Alliance and made worse by joining the Horde?
11/11/2018 12:01 AMPosted by Zerde

If you want to talk about fairness, why should the ALLIANCE campaign be dedicated to how a character defects from the Alliance and made worse by joining the Horde?


Now you're just derailing the conversation entirely and turning this into another "blood elves should be Alliance!" thread.

If that is what you want to argue feel free to make a new thread about it. I'm sure that topic hasn't been done to death.
11/11/2018 12:48 AMPosted by Kisin
11/11/2018 12:01 AMPosted by Zerde

If you want to talk about fairness, why should the ALLIANCE campaign be dedicated to how a character defects from the Alliance and made worse by joining the Horde?


Now you're just derailing the conversation entirely and turning this into another "blood elves should be Alliance!" thread.

If that is what you want to argue feel free to make a new thread about it. I'm sure that topic hasn't been done to death.


Look the argument here is that Kael is not Horde, never was Horde, and never once showed any inclination to be Horde. Just because someone is the same race that is playable to your faction that does not mean they are part of it.

Trying to appeal to "fairness" is just as unfair in my view.
You’re down warchiefs, we’re down cities.

Someone above said Stonard was analogous Theramore... that’s a pretty far stretch and a bad stretch.
11/11/2018 12:56 AMPosted by Zerde

Look the argument here is that Kael is not Horde, never was Horde, and never once showed any inclination to be Horde. Just because someone is the same race that is playable to your faction that does not mean they are part of it.

Trying to appeal to "fairness" is just as unfair in my view.


The second Blizzard decided blood elves were going Horde there was zero chance of Kael'thas ever going Alliance. If you think there was you're just letting your firm Alliance bias cloud your judgement.

The options for Kael'thas were to become a Horde character or become a Legion character and become a loot pinata. My entire point is that Kael'thas deserved better than loot pinata status and could have been an important character in the story of his people going forward through WoW. Instead he was killed off prematurely before his fanbase could even enjoy him.
Stonard is still around.
11/11/2018 01:02 AMPosted by Eldrethana
You’re down warchiefs, we’re down cities.

Someone above said Stonard was analogous Theramore... that’s a pretty far stretch and a bad stretch.


It's the closest thing to a comparison I can think of, at least. Both are strongholds of one faction that's predominantly in the other faction's territory that had mage portals assigned to them.

But usually I think the comparison is made just because of how lopsided it looks. Theramore looked like a real city, and was appealing. Just about everything the horde builds looks like a slapdash craphole that could be blown over with a strong wind. For better or worse, Stonard's the closest thing the horde has to a Theramore.

Edit: Anyway, I've seen Fandral's name pop up a few times when people talk about racial leaders. Was he really that important that he's on the same leadership level as Tyrande and Malfurion?
All this thread is doing is making my Kael’thas salt come back.

As a Wc3 fan i’m still a bit frustrated about what Blizz did to him. It was dirty and they didn’t even give him a second chance like Illidan.
Ugh.
For what it’s worth, I feel like threads like this that blame the other faction for bad faction stories instead of Blizzard is why Blizzard feels they can get away with writing bad faction stories.
11/11/2018 01:38 AMPosted by Kisin
The second Blizzard decided blood elves were going Horde there was zero chance of Kael'thas ever going Alliance. If you think there was you're just letting your firm Alliance bias cloud your judgement.

The options for Kael'thas were to become a Horde character or become a Legion character and become a loot pinata. My entire point is that Kael'thas deserved better than loot pinata status and could have been an important character in the story of his people going forward through WoW. Instead he was killed off prematurely before his fanbase could even enjoy him.


Oh I never expected him to go back to the Alliance, BUT, I am telling you he still had just as much of a connection to the Alliance, if not more, to the Horde.

And yes, I actually expected he was gonna have his own dark turn, Mr "control your anger, or it will control you, I should know" was already signaling some bad vibes.
11/10/2018 10:50 PMPosted by Ràltar
Let us kill Jaina and we'll let you kill Sylvanas. Fair trade, I would say.
Deal! I'll throw in Anduin, Gelbin (he dying? I dunno), Muradin, Falstad, Moira, Brann, Magni, Tyrande, Maiev, Jarod, Shandris, Malfurion, Genn, Darius, Lorna, Tess, Aysa, Katherine, and Tandred if you like! Hell take Arathi and the Wetlands to boot. Even trade!

None of the racial leaders Alliance side make the game more enjoyable than Sylvanas makes it unenjoyable. It doesn't feel good to get kicked in the teeth by one character over and over and over again and have absolutely no recourse about it as she perpetually gets away with it.

Come to think of it, sure, kill off the Gnomes and have all the Gnome characters deleted. Horde players hate Gnomes, right? I play mostly Gnomes myself but I'll reroll I swear!

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