Blood DK's still too strong in 8.1

General Discussion
With more strength from ilvl increases bone shield becomes stronger.. the armor nerf isn't really doing much.

The Bonestorm nerf is decent, but it doesn't really address the underlying problem. They have too much utility and they go against the design philosophy you wanted for BFA.

The thought was to nerf all tanks so they would need healers more. This crushed most tanks...except blood dk's who received almost no significant nerfs coming into the new expac.

MDI all tanks are Blood DK's.
M+ groups prefer to take Blood DK's because they are broken, especially at higher keys.
A group of five Blood DK's went into a 12 key and completed it on time.

The changes in 8.1 are going to do almost nothing. Its still going to be Blood DK's above the rest by a mile. Can we get some more significant nerfs? Maybe start chopping away at their utility/damage if they are going to be more survivable/healing intensive.
At this point I'm more than sure they know what's strong and what's not; THEY. JUST. DON'T. CARE. At this point Blizzard has said the sales shortfall will be made up for with microtransactions. I feel like that's all they're doing not, trying to force what's left of their player base to spend maximum money on microtransactions.

Don't like your main? Switch to an alt and buy a boost! Oh your racials got nerfed? Better buy a race change! Don't have enough gear to get into good groups? Better buy gold so you can pickup some BoEs!
Honestly they should be buffing the other tanks up to what Blood will be in 8.1.

The constant nerf-train to classes every expansion sucks, make players powerful instead of watering everyone down to mediocrity.
11/10/2018 10:16 PMPosted by Mokrawr
Honestly they should be buffing the other tanks up to what Blood will be in 8.1.


That wouldn't make sense because Blood is too strong. As nice as it would be, having all tanks be one man armies like Blood DK's are would be ridiculous.

Blood DK's need to be clipped hard and buffs for the weak tanks.
People constantly seem to ignore that other tanks are weaker and need buffs, not nerfs to Bloods/Brews. . Nerfing Bloods and Buffing others created an exact reverse of the situation at hand. So either Buff the others, Or nerf everyone to the same level. Any other option is stupid.

One Creates more tanks, The other loses tanks.

Main issue is you cant nerf blood to the level of other tanks without making them useless. But you can buff other classes to be back to a good level and make everyone useful.

Course theres another issue at hand that is also ignored. If you give into the community and nerf a class because its liked in mythics then where does it stop?
Nerf rogues since it can be used to skip alot in +s.
Nerf boomy because the temp taunt pets they spawn can make large pulls easy as hell.
Nerf mages because they can make food for people to eat and bypass dots.
Nerf Priests because they can buff making damage not as bad.
Nerf pallies because they make mana easier.
Nerf Warlocks because they provide free health pots making healers job easier.
Nerf Shaman because they can use heroism making fights easier.
Nerf Warriors because they can boost damage of everyone.
Nerf everyone to take the same amount of damage, do the same damage, move the same speed, have the same skills etc etc.

Everything in mythics require different things. Its all about play style. Bloods arent as OP as everyone thinks, we need to be precise or were dead. We take more damage than any other tank, we spike like mad. We have been that way since WotlK.

Good tanks are amazing no matter the class.
11/10/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Nesuah
People constantly seem to ignore that other tanks are weaker. They need buffs. Nerfing Bloods and Buffing others created an exact reverse of the situation at hand. So either Buff the others, Or nerf everyone to the same level. Any other option is stupid.

One Creates more tanks, The other loses tanks.


If we buff all tanks up to the level Blood DK's are at the game becomes a complete joke.

If we buff tanks up to a reasonable level, but not Blood DK tier that doesn't solve the problem.

Buffs to weak tanks and nerfs to Blood DK's together make sense.
11/10/2018 10:18 PMPosted by Valarien
That wouldn't make sense because Blood is too strong. As nice as it would be, having all tanks be one man armies like Blood DK's are would be ridiculous.

Blood DK's need to be clipped hard and buffs for the weak tanks.


To be honest, any skilled Tank could be a "One Man Army", it's nowhere close to an avoidance capped tank casually going into a capital city and soloing a faction Leader like they have in Wrath of the Lich King.

Paladin Tanks seem to be doing very well.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KYle9tx96fk
Bdks will always be strong for dungeons that's just how they're designed. They can be the worse tanks for raids (see EN/TOV/NH) and still be good for dungeons.

For me balancing for dungeons is a slippery sloppe toward homogenization and only good for esports, which I don't care.

Saying that there are still some tanks that needs help, see guardian druid and prot warriors. I think they're getting buffed but we will see in 8.1 .
The reasons Blood DK are strong right now are not new, and not related to tuning. I'm not sure why this is suddenly such a hot topic in BFA when they were considerably stronger in Legion, but if you want DK to not be a top tank for M+ you will need to completely redesign their defensive kit, make affixes that prevent self healing, or remove key spells like Death Grip/Gorefiends.

Really, the answer should be ways to balance out utility and situational strength for other tanks, which I do think they are doing with the changes to Warriors and Druids specifically.

I'm not sure what the answer can be for those unwilling to attempt to break the meta themselves though.
By my testing, the other tanks really aren't considerably worse than Blood, it just seems like no one is willing to play anything other than the tank that is the best.

Its understandable, because the kit of Blood can be so useful, but the answer to this problem wont be nerfs, especially since they were WAY stronger with relationship to the content last expansion and it didn't seem to change Blizzard's approach.

It might be most pertinent to find creative ways to give other tanks things that can help even the playing field out.
Step one is find a way to give another Death Grip like ability to another tank.

Cyous had a great idea - giving Warriors a Death Grip like lasso ability on Heroic Throw!
11/10/2018 10:29 PMPosted by Zoumz
Bdks will always be strong for dungeons that's just how they're designed.


They can be good for dungeons without being the 100% go-to choice. A few good nerfs to knock them from the pedestal might be enough for people to start considering other tanks (if they are buffed) instead of always waiting for a blood dk.
11/10/2018 10:21 PMPosted by Nesuah
Nerf rogues since it can be used to skip alot in +s.
Nerf boomy because the temp taunt pets they spawn can make large pulls easy as hell.
Nerf mages because they can make food for people to eat and bypass dots.
Nerf Priests because they can buff making damage not as bad.
Nerf pallies because they make mana easier.
Nerf Warlocks because they provide free health pots making healers job easier.
Nerf Shaman because they can use heroism making fights easier.
Nerf Warriors because they can boost damage of everyone.
Nerf everyone to take the same amount of damage, do the same damage, move the same speed, have the same skills etc etc.
Whew, I'm safe.
11/10/2018 10:33 PMPosted by Metrohaha
make affixes that prevent self healing
Like necrotic was supposed to be before they realized AMS dispelled it?
People constantly seem to ignore that other tanks are weaker. They need buffs. Nerfing Bloods and Buffing others created an exact reverse of the situation at hand. So either Buff the others, Or nerf everyone to the same level. Any other option is stupid.

One Creates more tanks, The other loses tanks.


If we buff all tanks up to the level Blood DK's are at the game becomes a complete joke.

If we buff tanks up to a reasonable level, but not Blood DK tier that doesn't solve the problem.

Buffs to weak tanks and nerfs to Blood DK's together make sense.


Bloods have 3 things, Death strike and Bone Shield,Ams. Remove/Nerf one [even more] and we are nothing. We dont have mobility anymore, We lost alot of armor in prepatch, Our rune for armor/stam is useless. We have nothing anymore, We need to play well or were dead.

Ive tanked with some Bloods that are bad and some that are good. The player makes the tank but so do the skills. ive seen amazing warriors,pallies,druids,dhs,monks. Ive also seen ones that suck !@#.

Just because a group wants a Blood doesnt mean nerf the blood. Means find a group that wants a different playstyle than a tank that runs in aoes, bone shields, death strikes, prays and tries to kite waiting for something to refresh because we have so much downtime and damage intake.
11/10/2018 10:33 PMPosted by Metrohaha
I'm not sure why this is suddenly such a hot topic in BFA when they were considerably stronger in Legion,


Because every other tank got nerfed hard and were victims to prune and design philosophies centered around needing healers.

Blood DK's might not be as strong as they were in Legion, but they came into BFA FAR less gutted then other tanks. They got pruned the least and the way the spec plays goes against the "need a healer" philosophy.

Legion Blood DK might be better than BFA Blood DK. But every other Legion tank is a shell of their former selves in BFA.
11/10/2018 10:35 PMPosted by Millennial
Like necrotic was supposed to be before they realized AMS dispelled it?


Would have to be a seasonal affix.
Kiting is far too easy even after the threat changes, so something that only occurs 2 times every few months is never going to change the meta enough.

It MIGHT be something that could change tournaments enough, but either way the changes to necrotic in 8.1 should be a step towards what you might be after.

Will probably just boost Holy and Ret Paladin's place in the meta a bit though instead.
11/10/2018 10:39 PMPosted by Metrohaha
11/10/2018 10:35 PMPosted by Millennial
Like necrotic was supposed to be before they realized AMS dispelled it?


Would have to be a seasonal affix.
Kiting is far too easy even after the threat changes, so something that only occurs 2 times every few months is never going to change the meta enough.

It MIGHT be something that could change tournaments enough, but either way the changes to necrotic in 8.1 should be a step towards what you might be after.

Will probably just boost Holy and Ret Paladin's place in the meta a bit though instead.
My point isn't "change one affix and the balance issue goes away."
It's that Blizzard can't even balance their own game without tripping all over themselves.
11/10/2018 10:38 PMPosted by Valarien
Legion Blood DK might be better than BFA Blood DK. But every other Legion tank is a shell of their former selves in BFA.


I don't agree in the slightest.
No tank lost as many tools as Blood DK.
You just don't realize it because their core intangible strengths are not removable.

The loss of Dance of Darkness and Umbilicus eternus alone are nuts, but they also lost leech, got range nerfed on Gorefiend's, Traded Wraith walk away, and now essentially no longer have Red Thirst as a talent, which was arguably the strongest talent in the entire video game for any tank.

Almost all their best assets are either considerably less useful or don't exist any more in BFA, yet they are still being talked about like this.

I hope that elucidates the problem here.
11/10/2018 10:41 PMPosted by Millennial
11/10/2018 10:39 PMPosted by Metrohaha
...

Would have to be a seasonal affix.
Kiting is far too easy even after the threat changes, so something that only occurs 2 times every few months is never going to change the meta enough.

It MIGHT be something that could change tournaments enough, but either way the changes to necrotic in 8.1 should be a step towards what you might be after.

Will probably just boost Holy and Ret Paladin's place in the meta a bit though instead.
My point isn't "change one affix and the balance issue goes away."
It's that Blizzard can't even balance their own game without tripping all over themselves.


Its way harder to balance the top end of competitive content than you may realize.
I do hope everyone discussing this topic realizes that.

There will ALWAYS be a best and worst, and the best groups will always seek an advantage that may seem unfair to those unable to perform or unwilling to adapt.

DK is stronger than it should be, and the changes to it and to other tanks will help to alleviate that in 8.1.
After that, its on the community to show the other tanks can make big plays and deserve representation.

Blizzard's job here isn't to completely redesign a spec because 2 months into one piece of competitive content its over performing.

Its not like its also dominating in raids and pvp.
Blood DK's still too strong in 8.1


Good. *evil laughter*

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