Reverse harm dead before it got a chance

Monk
Seems like blizzard ignores all positive comments towards the monk class and finds a way to make sure monks stay bottom tier, pointless honor talents and nerfing the only decent one and "buffing" the alpha tiger haste one when haste is !@#$ for monks.

Clearly blizzard is more focused on the mobile diablo than their horrible game that has dropped millions of subscribers. bring back fists stun and tigers eye brew original. Stop reading the monk complaint forum and look at the actual problems with our class
what the tool tip on wowhead or wherever you read this from dosnt tell you is that reverse harm is also no longer tied to vivify so we have both now so its just a 10 seconds CD that grants 2 chi heals us and does some dmg not terrible but not great either ill agree
im aware of that. basically a reverse harm instead of a strong spam heal, not worth anymore, at first it was worth sacrificing one of our important baseline pvp talents. now its not.
cant believe I spent the last 3 weeks leveling a monk based off this talent only to see it nerfed to crap. Why even develope this talent and then make it usleless?
I wouldn't say that "haste is !@#$ for monks" in PvP because that's not entirely accurate and kind of a misconception.

Haste is what is why Bloodlust Serenity was so strong in Legion. Its why Legion WW felt so smooth with short cd on RSK (we had 30% base haste on the template up to 33-35% with good gear) and its why you see things like double FoF Serenity with OPS doing more damage than swift roundhouse now.

Haste will always lag behind other secondaries in PvP for a few reasons; Agility, Mastery, & Versatility will always scale better for burst, we have on demand resources (FoTWT, E.E), and haste does not benefit all of our abilities.

Haste can have a variable value at any given time but it's not really %^-* especially when it comes in extremely high values, one example being Bloodthirsty Instinct trinket in Legion.

The only argument against Alpha Tiger at all is that you have to give up an honor talent slot for it. Maybe it'll be unpopular in 3s but that's not the only content where a player is going to be using honor talents. You still have to make sure there is playability in War mode, Battlegrounds, 2v2, brawls, whatever the new 5v5 mode will be, etc for the people that enjoy that content regardless of what the popular opinion may be at the time.

Reverse Harm is still going to be fine. I understood the need for it to not have a cooldown when it replaced vivify but now it's just a better version of CTM on a CD that'll be a few seconds longer typically. Zero counterplay healing&damage was probably not going to be fun no matter how you looked at it. Not being able to stop off healing without using hard CC wouldn't have been healthy for matches at all. Even in the case of feral they have to at least be doing damage to heal so there is some form of counterplay to that. With Reverse Harm you couldn't stop the monk unless he starved himself or you had hard cc available.
Its hard to say if this was even much of a buff because with ctm the cooldown went down with chi spent.
I don't know if its a bug or not but RSK gives mortal wounds(-25% heal) on test now. I didn't read about it in patch notes but I may have missed it.
!@#$ ! We need more sustain and blizzard nerfs reverse harm. Give us healing elixir again!
wait Talby are you trying to make any sort of case for haste? hrmm...

I think the big point is, that isn't the talent anybody wants. People don't want more haste for PVP. It works nicely in PVE raids because you're standing still DPSing.

Devs are clearly very out of touch with that move. Also have you seen what happens at very high haste levels? You will start animation rubber banding and be unable to queue the next ability and accidentally hit thinks like tiger palm or blackout kick back to back because they won't go off in time.

Also you can't make any case for expel harm.
40 energy
generates 2 chi
heals for 8 percent hp
10 second cooldown.

"HOLD UP GUYS IMA KITE GIMME ABOUT 2 MINUTES I'll BE FULL HP!"

That is in no way, shape, or form an upgrade from CTM but indeed a MASSIVE nerf in self healing and sustain.

yeah thats worth an honor talent lol is this some kind of joke? That looks like it should just be baseline part of our kit honestly. Oh...wait...it used to be.
11/14/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Ultrios
wait Talby are you trying to make any sort of case for haste? hrmm...

Also you can't make any case for expel harm.
40 energy
generates 2 chi
heals for 8 percent hp
10 second cooldown.

"HOLD UP GUYS IMA KITE GIMME ABOUT 2 MINUTES I'll BE FULL HP!"

yeah thats worth an honor talent lol is this some kind of joke? That looks like it should just be baseline part of our kit honestly.


Blizzard destroyed ww monk, and now they just dont know what to do.
So basically they got rid of our existing free small heal every 10 seconds and replaced it with a slightly larger, but still small heal that now costs 40 energy every 10 seconds and does untargetable damage and as a consolation generates 2 chi....

To fix monk now I feel like you need:
1.) baseline this (we need self healing in all aspects of the game not just PvP)
2.) Energy cost lowered or removed altogether. (similar to healing elixir)
3.) give it 2 charges. (similar to healing elixir)
4.) make it usable while stunned. (helps our monks are squishy when stunned problem)
Or... give us healing elixir back
It doesn't heal for anymore than our current CTM heal lol.
11/14/2018 11:10 AMPosted by Ultrios
It doesn't heal for anymore than our current CTM heal lol.


Plus healing elixir i mean
11/14/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Ultrios
Also you can't make any case for expel harm.
40 energy
generates 2 chi
heals for 8 percent hp
10 second cooldown.

"HOLD UP GUYS IMA KITE GIMME ABOUT 2 MINUTES I'll BE FULL HP!"

That is in no way, shape, or form an upgrade from CTM but indeed a MASSIVE nerf in self healing and sustain.

yeah thats worth an honor talent lol is this some kind of joke? That looks like it should just be baseline part of our kit honestly. Oh...wait...it used to be.


Man its almost as if 90% of monks on this forum complain about every !@#$in change possible that gets made without trying it out or looking at the bigger picture.
I wont speak for PVE, I wont even speak for BG's, but I will for arena's.

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You say that Reverse Harm is NO way an upgrade from CTM, so lets look at it

CTM: Makes your vivify free and instant cast every 10 seconds. CD reduced every time you use chi.
Reverse Harm: Heals for 8% of someones health, deals damage worth 8% of someones health, and generates 2 Chi on a 10 second cooldown. 40 Energy Cost.

In what world is that NOT an upgrade from CTM? Are we reading the same changes? And come to find out that apparently Reverse Harm will NOT replace vivify as well.
Throughout an arena match Reverse Harm will amount to x10 more than CTM ever would, especially in 3s rather than 2s. An 8% instant heal that also deals 8% damage and generates 2 Chi will vastly improve the flow and QoL of an arena for WW.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Besides, currently in arena we take the following honor talents for 99% of matchups:
Fort Brew
HHS
Disabling Reach
(and obviously you switch out Disabling Reach for Disarm vs Melee) and really no other honor talent is ever really taken.
The only matchup ive found that CTM is ACTUALLY WORTH using in 3s is against Owlplay (Spr/Boomy/Rsham) due to it being a dampener and us not really having any other honor talent thats worth a damn vs that specific matchup.
So 1 comp out of the ton that are queing on ladder is not enough to warrant saying CTM is actually a useful talent. I can see how it's useful in two's but that's about it, and even then lets not forget any PVP change is made to be balanced around 3v3.
It'll be insanely rare that you see a WW in high end arena actually run CTM, lets be honest.

One thing I will agree with you on is that it SHOULD be baseline, and we all know it used to be since its basically a mirror of Expel Harm from MOP/WOD now, however regardless I think this talent has tons of potential and will even go as far as to say it will be used in a majority of games in 3s.
Like I don't get why people are trying to make it look like its a bad honor talent when it really isn't, it's actually really good.
And I wont lie, the first proposed version of Reverse Harm looked really damn good, but so does this one.
And do we have alot of !@#$ that we lost that we'd like back? Should a majority of our honor talents even be baseline for WW? Sure, but I don't see it happening so i'm glad their atleast bringing back an ability.

Atleast as far as 3s go, our Honor Talent selections will likely look something like:
Fort Brew
Reverse Harm
Situational (TurboFist vs Melee, Ride The Wind for overall utility, Pressure Points for tanky comps where you'd need an execute saying that its functionality on the PTR is intentional)
11/14/2018 08:26 AMPosted by Xengist
Its hard to say if this was even much of a buff because with ctm the cooldown went down with chi spent.


In a talent vs talent comparison between Reverse Harm & CTM, the build without a cooldown was better but the cooldown was about the same. The time it took you to generate enough energy to cast a heal (from zero to 40) was within a second or two of time it would have taken you to continuously spend to reduce the cooldown of CTM.

It started getting out of hand with the healing you could do with E.E or inside Serenity without really sacrificing anything because Serenity still increases damage & healing. I sat a kidney, had my engi helm proc and it removed Garrote/Garrote Silence/Rupture, and I ended up being able to live the burst and with E.E I was able to just fire off 4 heals in the 5 globals for almost half of my health bar. The Serenity situation was not as big but a cast of RH was more damage than a BoK Crit if it heals and you pretty much always had the offensive pressure through healing.

The resources being an added bonus were nice and still are. It'll be a smoother transition between offensive/defensive gameplay since you'll be able to still generate Chi. You are punished more for getting kicked now though.

With both of that said I'm not sure if I'm really unlucky or Reverse Harm does not crit anymore.
https://i.imgur.com/wmF6GOc.jpg

11/14/2018 08:39 AMPosted by Xengist
I don't know if its a bug or not but RSK gives mortal wounds(-25% heal) on test now. I didn't read about it in patch notes but I may have missed it.


It's always done that. Combat Conditioning is our passive for it.

11/14/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Ultrios
wait Talby are you trying to make any sort of case for haste? hrmm...

I think the big point is, that isn't the talent anybody wants. People don't want more haste for PVP. It works nicely in PVE raids because you're standing still DPSing.

Devs are clearly very out of touch with that move. Also have you seen what happens at very high haste levels? You will start animation rubber banding and be unable to queue the next ability and accidentally hit thinks like tiger palm or blackout kick back to back because they won't go off in time.

Also you can't make any case for expel harm.
40 energy
generates 2 chi
heals for 8 percent hp
10 second cooldown.

"HOLD UP GUYS IMA KITE GIMME ABOUT 2 MINUTES I'll BE FULL HP!"

That is in no way, shape, or form an upgrade from CTM but indeed a MASSIVE nerf in self healing and sustain.

yeah thats worth an honor talent lol is this some kind of joke? That looks like it should just be baseline part of our kit honestly. Oh...wait...it used to be.


I'm not really making any case for haste. It's not a stat you want to chase so don't go changing your gems and enchants for it. I do think that a lot of people mistakenly use weighted stats from PvE tools when those tools are not setup for the scenarios your looking to get information for. Even on the surface of it all your going to get inconsistency's and inaccurate results the moment that you take into consideration that crit is 50% less effective in PvP, the damage sources are not the same (ToD&ToK specifically), the time lapses are different, and the APL does not mimic pvp gameplay.

"Animation rubber banding?" I don't wanna go off topic here but what you described sounded 100% like a latency problem or spell queue error. If you are really having problems with queuing up abilities or inputs in general at high haste levels when the effects can be accentuated you wanna get that checked out because you should never hit a button and not have it go off for anything other than limitations like the GCD or target range.

/dump GetCVar("SpellQueueWindow") will show you what your setting is at.
I'm not as forum tryhard, nor do i give a !@#$ about this garbage designed dumpster fire of a spec.

But uhh, can one of you guys go dig around and quote "I would play expel harm if it did no damage, no healing, and generated 1 chi"

Cause thats still relevant.

If you don't know, or understand pvp to the level to see how this ability is amazing, don't comment.
Plenty of real WW's are around still trying to save this spec that many have decided to abandon. Let them raise issues where they actually exist.
11/14/2018 04:09 PMPosted by Reqy
I'm not as forum tryhard, nor do i give a !@#$ about this garbage designed dumpster fire of a spec.

But uhh, can one of you guys go dig around and quote "I would play expel harm if it did no damage, no healing, and generated 1 chi"

Cause thats still relevant.

If you don't know, or understand pvp to the level to see how this ability is amazing, don't comment.
Plenty of real WW's are around still trying to save this spec that many have decided to abandon. Let them raise issues where they actually exist.


10/13/2018 01:53 AMPosted by Ripwotlkwar
.....? It could literally do nothing, take 40 energy, and give 1 chi and I'd still consider taking it.

oh no, feared a half mile away, have full energy.
yay 1 more chi while i march back to my target
have full energy by the time i get there

what is this thread
Thanks talby
11/14/2018 04:09 PMPosted by Reqy
If you don't know, or understand pvp to the level to see how this ability is amazing, don't comment.
Plenty of real WW's are around still trying to save this spec that many have decided to abandon. Let them raise issues where they actually exist.

Yeah too many people around here spreading misinformation, especially from a PVP standpoint.

I don't see how someone could look at the most recent version of Reverse Harm and go "hmm that looks like !@#$ I don't think i'll ever take it", its absurd.
I for one actually will go as far as to think that this talent will be used in most, if not all matchups.

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