Shadow Priest Changes in 8.1

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Continued from the previous post...

I'm sure you're aware of Publik's post, and the linked document stating the spec's issues. I'll link again if you (or anyone else) is unaware:
09/24/2018 07:12 AMPosted by Publik
https://gdoc.pub/doc/e/2PACX-1vQBysx2OmRLU5AicbBZND5C6JCXwoC-ii-Z7Rf181-aMGty00p-pMWR2d4GQ2uAOvZVFfg1bI1WAzVF
An amazing document that breaks down many issues. One of which I will quote here for recognition as I believe is a significant issue for dungeons, and easily fixed:
Shadow’s baseline AoE rotation is dull and contradictory. Mind Sear generates more Insanity the more targets it hits, which allows you to use Void Eruption faster, but once you’re in Voidform there is no actual benefit to staying in; this while Mind Sear’s design promotes staying in Voidform for as long as possible. Rather, you want to exit Voidform so you can trigger your next Void Eruption as quickly as possible. Unfortunately, there’s no way to accomplish that besides not casting anything, which is generally not worth doing. The problem here is that Void Eruption is tied to entering Voidform; Void Eruption is far too important for our AoE to be so uncontrollable for the player. It is not realistic to expect the player to actively delay going into what’s supposed to be the highlight of the spec, just because they feel, by delaying, they’ll do more AoE through Void Eruption. Moreover, it’s not healthy gameplay to even tempt the player to think it’s worth not casting Mind Sear (or generating any Insanity at all for that matter) just to drop out of Voidform, regardless of whether it is actually worth doing or not.

Note that the bold is for attention (not yelling) as is key to improving the spec further:

Current Voidform is a massive issue with the spec as it was in Legion, now, and most likely in 8.1. And can be easily solved by decoupling Eruption from Voidform. Thus preserving Voidform mechanics for raiders while treating Eruption as a separate entity that will spend resources generated so the player can then immediately start working on the Insanity again for any content that isn't raiding. Naturally, they can tune appropriately.

How can this not be implemented for 8.1 as it just doesn't change the core workings of the spec.

How many times has it been said that Mind Blast needs 2 charges baseline to negate the CD clash with Void Bolt. SW: D back as a baseline ability. LotV needing to become baseline to reduce ramp. All these simple changes can be done for 8.1, and will improve the spec exponentially along with the above Voidform suggestion.

How can the players be patient when they've been told by the developers that their spec isn't going to be ready for release, and then met with no such back and forth communication. Just imagine if specs had received watercooler conversation between the players and developers during the Alpha, Beta and release in how one's spec is progressing. What to changes expect in the coming months. Maybe even two way discussion in how to improve upon the issues of a certain spec, and how to overcome them.

But we got nothing but confirmation that the spec was broken, and they are seeing to getting it fixed in an upcoming patch.

Now don't get me wrong. BFA's content from art/sound design, dungeons, raid, islands and story are all amazing. An since I ended up deleting my Feral after first night of Uldir, I have been absolutely loving the !@#$ out of this game on this Rogue. It has issues. Loot and Azerite pieces are an entirely different conversation, but there are specs that have numerous problems, and Shadow is on the tippy top of that list, and all this could have been rectified by a communicative effort from the developers that did no materialise. And you wonder why players are upset after sticking with a (self-confessed) broken class through Alpha/Beta, through release, through the first raid tier, and now met with band-aid tuning to Voidform that absolutely could have been implemented months ago.
I still think void eruption and void bolt should be separate abilities with a shared cooldown (while having void form activation activate by pressing either void bolt/eruption). It would make AoE a lot more satisfying to be able to constantly erupt on things, and you could also control if you wanna single target burst go into void form or normal AoE enter into voidform.

Bring back shadow word death Blizz fam.
10/23/2018 06:27 AMPosted by Dirtymind
10/23/2018 05:00 AMPosted by Vaani
Idk why anyone was expecting a full on rework during an expansion, that's something that happens when a new one is coming.

Then when would you have done a full rework, they didn't do it before, because they admitted they got it wrong during the Beta and ran out of time and Large Changes had to be "Next Patch" it took over 131 days to get to this point...

A players chosen class and spec is how they experience WoW... they need to stop this "we will fix it next patch" mentality and fix it sooner. Cause Next Patch should mean big changes... 4 months and "that" is all they came up with, while its a much needed balance fix,it should be delivered as soon as possible so every class gets even start into a new expansion.

The first part of an a new expansion 8.0 is a busy time for players, lots of leveling, gear and rep grinding and finding your place in mythic+, raids and pvp... with a broken class. This hurts players love for the game, cause Blizzard refuse to give their class right in Beta, we needed a little more love than a patch, and mind you a patch that reads a bit more like a hotfix at this point.

We were expecting solutions to critical issues, that have been documented and reported. The changes while a balanced, its more of a rollback to return some of our past glory in Legion, rather than innovative.


They should have done the rework while working on the expansion not AFTER it launches. You completely missed my point. I'm saying it's a bit late for them to do a COMPLETE, LIKE FULL ON COMPLETE rework right now. Not just change up some talents. I'm talking looking at how insanity and void form works as a whole. How the class functions as a whole that's not going throw off the balance of everything else. They'd have to completely rework azerite as well to fit whatever major changes they make. It's not as simple as just doing all that in the first patch and that's what I'm saying.

This should have been done before the expansion released.
played Shadow on PTR, still sucks <3
I'd kind of prefer if Dispersion was a shorter cooldown, high mobility, less defensive type move. Something like 60 second cooldown, 7 second duration, 50% move speed, 50% damage reduction.

In the past, arena play against spriest has boiled down to "force the dispersion and then swallow the shadow priest" and I think that is only going to be even worse now. Since without Edge we are going to be using our voidform again in pvp (and now voidform is our tanky stance) we're just going to get chain cc'd through void form and popped the moment we are out of it. I suspect the dispersion talent will become mandatory to reduce the cooldown but as a result we are not EVER going to be able to move.

Mania should probably be reintroduced as a baseline passive to give us a little bit of mobility / reason to not be in shadow form. Patch notes read like arena spriest are going to have to dump voidform whenever possible for the damage buff and reduction but we are going to be totally limp outside of it, completely immobile, and if dispersion is on CD, we're going to die in a stun.
But the thing they need to rework the most... is their approach to Class Design.

They went into BfA knowing they ran out of time and 5 dps specs were not "working as intended" and needing Large Changes in June... 4 months later we get told their is a fix coming...

Customers dont have the patience to wait a whole patch for their game play experience to be IMPROVED, but the worst part of all this is it was the start of a new expansion, leveling, gearing, questing, rep grinding, pvp, raiding, dungeions with a broken spec is torture.
10/24/2018 12:12 AMPosted by Annesh
10/23/2018 11:25 PMPosted by Nerdheart
I do 6.5k single-target DPS when I'm shadow, maybe 7k with some lucky procs.


This isn't a Shadow problem. It's a gear and, dare I say, player problem.

With 373 equipped, I do 10.5k minimum on a ST boss even with aoe talents. I'll do 12k overall on a run, very often topping damage against mages and rogues. Even if I don't top, I'm never far behind, and I'm never struggling even to beat the tank.

This is the problem with community-driven whine-fests. People start attributing their shortcomings to the class itself, when the reality is there's plenty of room to grow in gear and skill first, even if the class really is on the weak side.

Is the rotation a bit weaksauce? Yeah, sure. But the numbers are very close.


I hit around 11-12k dps in crit mastery gear currently ST with no haste to be found anywhere because I haven't been farming M+ or gotten remotely lucky on drops. Thats only at 360 ilvl but I can tell you for certain it does not feel good to play at all.
I guess from what I could tell on the PTR:

SW:Death still needs to be baseline
SW:V or SI needs to be baseline to fix the VB clipping MB.
SW:Pain needs a duration to match VT so it doesn't fall off during VF forcing you to waste a global reapplying and likely dropping VF.(Even with spamming VB during VF you will still lose SW:Pain btw.)
Mania should be baseline since we have no movement ability outside of B&S.
Void Erupt and Void Form need to be separated.
Our 3m dps cd Shadowfiend is very lackluster and needs to be tuned better or changed completely. (Power Infusion would be nice)
I made my own thread posting this, but just in case this is where Blizz is reading feedback:

Dearest Blizz,

Thanks for taking a shot at shadow. I think there is some good stuff in there and I'm glad it has made it onto the PTR. I think there is some room for improvement.

Current Change
Latest PTR build has Edge of Insanity as: "While not in Voidform, reaching 90 insanity reduces damage taken by 10% and increases damage dealt by 10% for 15 seconds."

I like the idea of a short passive tied to insanity! But I think it is being triggered in a useless place right now. Instead, I (strongly) suggest Edge of Insanity become:

Proposed Change
Return from Insanity. Upon exiting Voidform, the shadow priest regains clarity, reducing damage taken by 10% and increasing damage dealt by 10% for 15 seconds."

Justification / Analysis
Blizz has put this change in place to get rid of the current arena Spriest gameplay, which basically just involves building up to 90 insanity and then hanging out in shadow form for the rest of the match. However, our 10% damage reduction has been removed from shadowform. Therefore, we are actually somewhat incentivized to pop void eruption ASAP. The 10% damage reduction but prohibition on entering void form are contradictory IMO. We can get the same buffs by immediately popping voidform upon reaching 90% insanity. Since we have literally no other reason to NOT pop it except perhaps that we are being trained and kicked and not allowed to cast void erupiton (in which case, we aren't getting any benefit out of 10% increased damage) the new Edge of Insanity is essentially an empty talent.

Without shadowform 10% damage reduction, even with Holy Focus, we are going to feel very squishy and vulnerable coming out of shadowform. The new dispersion talent will likely be mandatory, and as a result we will not even have body & soul to try to create some space coming out of voidform.

Return from Insanity could act as a deterrent to keep teams from hardswapping to the priest the moment voidform drops. I suspect that we are going to be doing such insane damage DURING voidform that we'll be getting chain CC'd through it anyways. This will probably position the "don't lose insanity while stunned / sheeped / etc" talent as a premier defensive pvp talent, and the new edge as another afterthought. I think a Return to Insanity might offer a little more competition without being totally OP.

Just my thoughts. Thanks for the attention Blizz, hope someone finds this post helpful.

Bonus Suggestion - Legacy of the Void Change (5% spell damage during voidform) - I think this is only going to reinforce LOTV as the hands-down best-in-tier talent. This 5% damage increase would make WAY more sense paired with Surrender to Madness. Even with the 60s cd reduction, it is my understanding that STM is SOOOO far behind the other talents that this slight buff probably isn't going to get it done. Maybe the 5% only applies during STM or something. Just another thought.
All this is is some number tweaks. There is no real design changes to address core issues.
10/24/2018 07:23 AMPosted by Sybille
All this is is some number tweaks. There is no real design changes to address core issues.


+1
Ugh why is Edge of Insanity being nerfed and Mania being removed? Just when I got my computer repaired and was able to enjoy PvP BECAUSE I didn't have to deal with void form garbage, my play style is being gutted and I have to deal with trashly designed voidform again.
We likely won't see void form removal until 9.0 or so. While I'd much rather go back to MoP style shadow I'm fine with the current style however, we need QoL changes to make the spec feel right. Again I am not talking about damage numbers, I'm talking about specifically the mechanical parts of the spec that do not function well.

10/24/2018 07:13 AMPosted by Maybeitsroxx
SW:Death still needs to be baseline
SW:V or SI needs to be baseline to fix the VB clipping MB.
SW:Pain needs a duration to match VT so it doesn't fall off during VF forcing you to waste a global reapplying and likely dropping VF.(Even with spamming VB during VF you will still lose SW:Pain btw.)
Mania should be baseline since we have no movement ability outside of B&S.
Void Erupt and Void Form need to be separated.
Our 3m dps cd Shadowfiend is very lackluster and needs to be tuned better or changed completely. (Power Infusion would be nice)


This is the road that fixes shadow for the rest of the xpac. My car(spec) is broke down blizzard how am I going to get to work(raid,pvp,m+) if you don't fix my car(spec). Relaxing some of the restrictions of VF is basically the exact opposite of your intended goals of lowering the impact of VF coming into this expansion. Many of our interactions are contradictory of each other or in MB and VB's case collide with each other.
I feel like these changes are a step in the right direction, but there's still more that could be done to improve the spec. Basically, what many people have already said: SW:D becoming baseline again, VE and VF being separated, and two charges to MB/SW:V. While I initially had success when leveling up through BfA, Shadow spec once again became lame around max level, and I've just felt better about focusing on the healing specs. And while these changes next patch are good (rewarding utility, buffing VF and VB, fixing VT, buffing LI and STM), if I still have VE tied to activating VF when it does so much damage, I don't want to play that style. Therefore, I'm not sure yet if these changes are going to be enough for me to get back into Shadow spec again.
Well your real option is to play something else if you want to have a complete experience.
10/24/2018 05:07 AMPosted by Vaani
10/23/2018 06:27 AMPosted by Dirtymind
...
Then when would you have done a full rework, they didn't do it before, because they admitted they got it wrong during the Beta and ran out of time and Large Changes had to be "Next Patch" it took over 131 days to get to this point...

A players chosen class and spec is how they experience WoW... they need to stop this "we will fix it next patch" mentality and fix it sooner. Cause Next Patch should mean big changes... 4 months and "that" is all they came up with, while its a much needed balance fix,it should be delivered as soon as possible so every class gets even start into a new expansion.

The first part of an a new expansion 8.0 is a busy time for players, lots of leveling, gear and rep grinding and finding your place in mythic+, raids and pvp... with a broken class. This hurts players love for the game, cause Blizzard refuse to give their class right in Beta, we needed a little more love than a patch, and mind you a patch that reads a bit more like a hotfix at this point.

We were expecting solutions to critical issues, that have been documented and reported. The changes while a balanced, its more of a rollback to return some of our past glory in Legion, rather than innovative.


They should have done the rework while working on the expansion not AFTER it launches. You completely missed my point. I'm saying it's a bit late for them to do a COMPLETE, LIKE FULL ON COMPLETE rework right now. Not just change up some talents. I'm talking looking at how insanity and void form works as a whole. How the class functions as a whole that's not going throw off the balance of everything else. They'd have to completely rework azerite as well to fit whatever major changes they make. It's not as simple as just doing all that in the first patch and that's what I'm saying.

This should have been done before the expansion released.


Would you expect your car manufacturer to "wait" until next years model to fix your car's issues? This kind of thinking is exactly why they put out trash in the first place.

This spec became trash in Legion. A majority of shadow priests said so. If the devs would stop avoiding the forums like the plague they would see that the majority wanted the void rendition to go away. The minority are those who say they "enjoy" this void trash. It doesn't feel like a shadow priest when you play. Who wanted 2 mind flays? I mean honestly that's what it was....dot, dot, mind flay, burst, mind flay with two rays, shadow bolt....oops void bolt. No originality at all. Don't get me started on how ugly it looks now like a steaming pile of dung!
10/22/2018 07:26 PMPosted by Netherspike
God I wish voidform would just go.


10/22/2018 07:29 PMPosted by Female
Shadow priests: "Get rid of Voidform!"
Blizzard: *Makes it "matter" more*.


This.. wtaf blizzard, how low can you drop the ball?
10/24/2018 06:41 AMPosted by Loblo
but we are going to be totally limp outside of it, completely immobile, and if dispersion is on CD, we're going to die in a stun.


If I'm reading the ptr changes correctly, spriest is going to get greater fade, which is going to make it difficult to just train the priest the entire game. Our defensive toolkit is looking pretty solid (still wtb void tendrils).

P.s. Obligatory "Blizz get rid of voidform" comment.

P.p.s. Get rid of the obnoxious vape cloud in shadow form. The glyph isn't good enough.
I hope people get the chance to test it on the ptr before commenting as well. I feel like aoe is a bit better, but man single target is almost exactly the same even with changes because of the aura nerf. Now if they make death baseline that would help considerably on single target dps and giving us back the execute class identity.

Another issue is by putting so much into voidform damage and removing damage from the baseline, we have the issues we had before that they started to solve by taking damage out if voidform (even more so now). Ramp up damage is mediocre until voidform and in m+ we are going to run into situations again where even with dark ascension we can maybe be in voidform every other pack (unless fortified week). But you don't want to take dark ascension amymore because then you miss out on the 5% damage increase from lotv. And by pushing more damage into vf, now movement/mechanics are even more punishing. You have to move? Maybe you can spam dispell magic or something until all your mana is drained to try and keep voidform up inbetween vb casts. Otherwise you drop early, and the damage drop off is even more punishing again. It just feels bad.

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