Shadow Priest Changes in 8.1

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10/22/2018 07:42 PMPosted by Lothain
Don't be dramatic. Enhancement has a unique but viable playstyle, it's the community who listens too much to streamers and don't invit enhc. They are cool. Not in a dire state at all. They need work, but no need for this "I'm the readheaded stepchild".

There's nothing dramatic about asking, in a thread related to a patch, if the one spec that was specifically mentioned to receive changes in a patch (among the other 2 mentioned specs, both of which have received attention) is going to be receiving changes in a patch.
They noticed us!!! These changes are nice as one Spriest who has been complaining I am happy with these changes thank you.
Thank you for the update Blizzard. I'd like to see mind bomb removed, San'layn moved to the 60 tier rather than mania being removed. I really like the utility San'layn brings but it cant compete with personal movement. This would give the 60 talents a nice utility choice between more interrupt, more party healing or mob control.
10/22/2018 07:39 PMPosted by Eclipen
10/22/2018 07:38 PMPosted by Newronka
How about fixing Marksman Hunters PvE and trickshot stuff. Or there is still policy we do not want you to play Marks in play :D

Did you miss the Marksman changes they announced like a week ago? There was an entire post, longer than this, about MM specifically for 8.1.

Missing the point. This post was mostly on pvp focus. Trick Shot its core mechanic how Marks do aoe dmg and its not working. Logs from m+ shows how bad Marksman is on m+ content. There is none Markman Hunters in m+15 at all. Everyspec has someone there but no marksman.
I wouldn't say it's everything shadow needs, but it's definitely a step in the right direction. A few comments:

1. I think putting the dispersion heal on a talent which competes with shadow's only mobility option is dubious, yet understandable. I still think that heal over time should be baseline, but I can see how, from a design standpoint, it makes sense.

2. Be careful not to overbuff shadow. Shadow's issues are mainly mechanical at this point. Yes, it could use a bump numbers wise (it's far from being a top performing spec or even average performing spec) but the numbers aren't that bad.

3. Baseline hallucination seems like a great idea. One of the criticisms I had was that casting anything but your damage spells destroyed insanity generation and was pretty much nothing but a way to drop out of void form early. Maybe Shadow Mend should be added to the list, but I also get why you don't want healing to generate insanity.

4. LOVING the Void Torrent change. I was really bummed out about how it just wasn't competitive. It's probably going to be an important single target talent now.

Overall: Making voidform feeling like it matters beyond access to void bolt once more? Great. Allowing us to use utility spells without completely dumpstering our insanity? Great. Better survivability? Great. Many of the mechanical issues aren't going to be fixed, but short of a major rework mid-expansion, they're there to stay.

Final comment: Voidform is supremely important to making shadow feel like a cohesive experience because beyond void bolt refreshing DoTs, it's the only way our abilities function with one another. This is a big part of why shadow feels so underwhelming right now: Without caring about voidform, all you're doing is keeping your DoTs up and casting your spells on cooldown with no regard to insanity generation (or the voidform damage buff while we're at it).
10/22/2018 07:14 PMPosted by Seph
Void Torrent generates 30 Insanity over its duration and deals 20% increased damage. Additionally, no longer requires Voidform to cast, so you can choose to use it on a priority damage target at any time.

I'm also concerned Void Torrent won't fit nicely into the Voidform cycle unlike our other cooldowns which are all in multiples of a minute; Bender, Fiend, DA, StM. If you truly wish to design us around minute intervals, then Void Torrent should either be a 30sec or minute cooldown, with the damage balanced appropriately.

I will admit, I'm in love of it generating insanity now and is one box ticked for talent updates for me.
I was excited to see a blue post, and then not very excited that it took all this time to come up with these band-aids?

Talent row 30 now contains a hodge podge of movement, healing, and defensive.

I don't know the exact math of the drain formula now, but this sounds like we'll look to average around ~30-35s Voidform instead of ~20-25s Voidform. I was fine with the VF durations that we had, they just needed to be impactful. The increase in damage during VF should be enough, though was hoping for just a flat increase to Haste instead of the slow scaling up. Guess I'll have to wait for this to be on the PTR to test it to see new average VF durations.

No mention of issues with Mind Blast and Void Bolt cd's aligning constantly, which feels super bad unless you take SW: Void. No mention of why SW: Death was made a talent.

With the increased VF duration, LI might not be completely useless. Even if it's not, it's even more boring than Bender.

Void Torrent still sticks you to the ground and can be interrupted, making the player feel like !@#$ when having to cancel the cast to move out of mechanics or being interrupted in PvP combat.

Why is STM still a thing? Okay, it's still a thing. Why is the penalty still a thing? Why are you still punishing us?

The Focused Will change seems to be good for those that PvP and doing solo world stuff. Seems weird they couldn't just add the passive to VF and call it a day, but instead had to do this.
Still not excited for these changes..yes, one of those don't like the direction class has gone but still plays it type of people. So no room to complain. Been maining shadow since Mists so I stick with it. I like having everything on one toon. I wish we could just get back MoP shadow. Hell I would take legion shadow (end of Legion) back :p

The big contributors to the priest discord seem happy with these changes, so I'll follow their advice and see how it plays for me once released.

Only thing I asked is can we please get SW: D baseline, so crazy it isn' t and feels very core to the class. This would allow for something else to be added to the talent tier list.
Mind Blast 2 charge baseline.
When they said these changes couldn't be finished in time and would be delayed till 8.1 I was really, really hoping for a rework of voidform or a shelving of it, not just some number tuning that could have been done ages ago. These changes sure look like they'll make Shadow stronger but I'm not seeing it becoming more fun (for PvE).

Voidbolt/mindblast still clash with each other cause of lined up cds, rotation is still boring/repetitive 3 buttons with no procs or anything to watch for, dot refreshes are still awkward with voidform, garbage mobility requiring a talent and movement/mechanics are still too punishing (and this will make losing voidform early even more punishing), still so awkward and feelsbad in world content/dungeons when things die right after you pop voidform and you're running around draining fast questioning your life choices, swd, etc.

Also this just makes shadow priest aoe worse/counterintuitive if voidform is going to last longer and still all aoe damage is in void eruption (which makes you want to leave voidform to aoe).

Void Torrent, s2m and other talent changes look decent and Hallucinations is a big plus, so at least there's that. Ultimately though nothing really changed it just does what it does better and still has all it's same antifun problems. Meh, I just hate the drain mechanic so I guess this isn't the spec for me anymore. O well, shelving priest again. Hope one day voidform will go back to the void but that seems a distant hope now.

PS- These changes look OP for PvP.
So this helps shadow (maybe) in fights that are long enough to make use of the longer voidforms... but what about fights that aren't long enough? Wasn't tying up so much of their damage in voidform one of the problems of Legion Spriest?

Not to mention how SPriest AoE is currently tied to getting out of Voidform asap... I was really looking to reroll to a priest, but man It's really apparent now that nobody at blizzard knows wtf they are doing in regards to class design anymore.
Are you ever going to explain to us (in blue text) why you think shadow word: death deserves to be a talent? It's pretty ridiculous we've gone this long with such a hated change without a real justification for it.
Thanks for the changes! We definitely need a more impactful void form.
Please take a look at how this impacts aoe (make mastery affect shadow crash and buff the damage more?) and it would be really nice to get swd back as a baseline so we can be the ranged class with an execute again.
While I would of preferred a full rework with the removal of Void Form, I am happy with the changes they have made however they are just missing 2 things IMO.

- Shadow Word: Death being a talent is horrible and just because someone has a fetish for "muh warrior fantasy" it doesn't mean we should suffer because of it.

- Surrender to Madness should simply buff the next Void Form you enter, last until you exit it, and then you lose 50% of your max HP. Not being able to generate insanity at all for 30 seconds is way to harsh of a penalty. 50% of your max HP is a pretty hefty price to pay already.
10/22/2018 07:14 PMPosted by Seph
This give you more freedom to use your on-global cooldown utility buttons, especially in Voidform, without incurring as much damage loss, since Insanity is constantly draining.
While you have this in mind, you should consider that half the druid specs have a similar problem in that half of their supposed utility can't be used without dropping their shapeshift which is required for them to do anything at all. Especially glaring for guardian. A minor complaint perhaps, but while you have the idea in mind and all...
10/22/2018 07:29 PMPosted by Female
Shadow priests: "Get rid of Voidform!"
Blizzard: *Makes it "matter" more*.

At least it’s a straight series of buffs as opposed to shifting our already finite power budget. I am in the same camp as you, but I’d rather take this than be left waiting for the next expansion. At least I feel incentive to level my SPriest to 120 now. But yes, I do hope that we shelve Voidform as a builder/spender mechanic for good come 9.0. And no, MoPs combo points are not an acceptable replacement. It’s already been done to death.

Edit: When the math all comes out, you see a 0.07% buff if you spend 42 seconds of every minute in voidform without interrupting any casts. And PvP SPriests were turned into glass cannons who are once again forced into using voidform.
Good start, most of the changes I like for raiding, but how will these play out in M+?

Ideally we want a way to play around long VF for raiding, and potentially tyrannical weeks, and one that utilizes more burst CDs for M+ (like DA, SC, DV). Being tied to long void forms again is a little frustrating in dungeons if an alternative isn't presented. Given its no where near as extreme as Legion without Mass Hysteria.

My other concern is AoE benefits of maintaining high VF. They're rather limited.
So, while I'm glad they are making changes, they seem to have missed the mark.

- Now we have to sacrifice all movement (now only Body and Soul) to make dispersion actually useful.

- Mobility is still nonexistent, and actually worse now that we basically have to spec into the new dispersion talent. Mania should just be baseline!

- the survivability "buff" seems really weak. What we needed was some sort of snare to keep mobs off us. Instead we get a minor damage reduction for melee only. Our survivability against casters is actually worse.

- Shadow Word: Death still a talent

- AoE takes a bit hit due to fewer void eruptions, which is our main source of Aoe damage

- Legacy of the Void is now a dead talent. It was already weaker than Dark Ascension, but now, with fewer void forms, it is much worse.

- Why is taking damage for surrender to madness still a thing? No one else has a massive penalty for a mediocre damage CD

- We still have the conflict between Void Bolt and Mind Blast making Shadow Work: Void a required talent. You didn't even bother to buff Shadowy Insight to try and make it competitive.
10/22/2018 07:56 PMPosted by Syf
locks acting like we're in bad shape lmao

In pvp locks are, and demo still has issues like insane ramp-up, every spell having a cast time, and useless trash talents and azerite traits, like doom and forbidden knowledge.
Okay, reading the thread now...

1. I've said it before, and I'm saying it again, and I'll say it again: Stop asking for voidform to get canned. It is not happening. It might get massive reworks, but if you're hoping for a complete removal or worse, a revert to pre-Legion shadow, you're chasing fairies and unicorns. Yes, the insanity system has issues. And that's why they're working to fix them. Yes, it's certainly a hard to balance system. No, it's not "impossible". It's definitely possible to fix "feast or famine" systems.

2. READ THIS PART TO THE END BEFORE REPLYING TO IT: Shadow Word: Death being a talent can be a completely sensible design decision. Though it's an interesting ability for shadow, it was never a "core" ability whose absence broke the spec. If you want it back, you're gonna have to do more than say "Give it back", including an explanation of why it's important that it be baseline, why you think it would be fine to nerf EVERY OTHER ABILITY WE HAVE to load more of our baseline damage and insanity generation into the execute phase, and a general idea of what you think should be in its place in the talent tree.

3. The people here pretending that these changes are bad... I just don't know what to tell you. No, they don't touch the deep seated mechanical issues with the spec (if you think I don't know about them, go check out page 10 in Publik's thread). However, the changes to voidform and insanity generation will do a lot to alleviate "cohesiveness" while the survivability changes are almost exactly what we need on that front (I'd have made the DIspersion heal baseline and shadow mend generate some insanity, but I can see why they're this way as well). Treating the devs like they're morons for making those changes doesn't make you look anything but unreasonable and is not going to help. You could definitely ask why they're sticking to such light changes (and I do agree with the one poster who commented that these changes should have happened weeks ago in an 8.0.5 patch), but pretending that these won't have any effect on gameplay is just disingenuous.
Suspicious of the nerf hidden in all these defensive buffs. Shadow priest not being defensive enough in pvp wasn't a thing.

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