Shadow Priest Changes in 8.1

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11/08/2018 03:00 PMPosted by Yvaelle
So ya. Yet another harebrained full Shadow redesign, but it's the sort of redesign that would make the spec incredibly fun :D


Don't like the idea of putting soulburn on every spell as a core mechanic. It's overly bloated from the beginning and, to your own admission, would likely require macros to even play.

But what I do like, is the idea of "empowering" spells. It's part of the fantasy for Voidform currently too, it's just not very well realised because it doesn't actually empower individual spells. Here though, you've got an alternate version of each ability which is tweaked in a way to make it numerically more powerful but also kind interesting. That I do like.
11/08/2018 03:35 PMPosted by Hpellipsis
11/08/2018 03:00 PMPosted by Yvaelle
So ya. Yet another harebrained full Shadow redesign, but it's the sort of redesign that would make the spec incredibly fun :D


Don't like the idea of putting soulburn on every spell as a core mechanic. It's overly bloated from the beginning and, to your own admission, would likely require macros to even play.

But what I do like, is the idea of "empowering" spells. It's part of the fantasy for Voidform currently too, it's just not very well realised because it doesn't actually empower individual spells. Here though, you've got an alternate version of each ability which is tweaked in a way to make it numerically more powerful but also kind interesting. That I do like.


Ya fair enough - this was just me shooting from the hip with class design to make a point. If I actually thought we had a snowball's chance in hell of getting a proper full redesign like this, I'd figure out how to solve the Soulburn problem.

The point all that was meant to convey is really about exactly that - making spell empowerment meaningful, tactical, and distinct from just "does 20% more damage"

*cough* Voidform *cough*
11/08/2018 10:32 AMPosted by Hpellipsis
11/08/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Aimou
This is just pure try to keep it up like the longer voidform fun legion had, but without the punishing drops.


11/08/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Maybeitsroxx
That was the basic idea I was saying earlier. The ramp is one of the main problems,
the idea doesn't really completely fix the ramp problem though. You will still have to worry about pack to pack moments when you are basically going to drop out of VF anyways.


I'm just very much against a mechanic with no ebb and flow to it, you just build to X, get there and maintaining it is very easy. Making a compelling design out of that would be difficult, and ultimately it has the same issue Voidform does now where no decisions are made based on your resource, and then very likely not based off anything.

You could argue shadow's lack of spell interaction, and bone idle single target rotation, stem from the fact that Voidform looks a lot more complex than it is from a player's point of view. This would be same sort of thing, something complex that ultimately isn't even relevant to the player because it doesn't create decisions.


The problem is VF doesn't really offer anything interesting at the moment either maintain dots and keep these two buttons on cooldown. There's no special interactions that make VF interesting nothing a player really has to think about. The skill ceiling of the spec is seemingly gone. Maybe thats just from my perspective. I'm not very happy with VF which is why I have been desperately trying to find another spec to get into until blizzard fixes this mess of a spec.

Maybeitsroxx btw.
11/08/2018 03:35 PMPosted by Hpellipsis
Don't like the idea of putting soulburn on every spell as a core mechanic. It's overly bloated from the beginning and, to your own admission, would likely require macros to even play.

But what I do like, is the idea of "empowering" spells. It's part of the fantasy for Voidform currently too, it's just not very well realised because it doesn't actually empower individual spells. Here though, you've got an alternate version of each ability which is tweaked in a way to make it numerically more powerful but also kind interesting. That I do like.


TL;DR: There have been a bountiful amount of posts on how to fix shadow mechanically but the silent treatment from devs makes it extremely challenging to give them suggestions as to whether we (as players) are along the same lines with the devs.

Also, if you don't care about Shadow, what follows is a waste of time :P

***

I agree that soulburn on every spell is too much. However, we're currently in the other extreme - just about none of our spells interact with each other, outside of the miniscule dot extension from Void Bolt.

If they're staying the Voidform route, then there's other options too:

Option 1: We have a 'ramp up' right now with little to no benefit. I'm advocating adding a reverse ramp-up, which, when achieved, should increase our dps - substantially.

Shadowy Apparitions removed.
Void Orbs (new): Your spell critical strikes have a 30% chance to create a Void orb that swirls the priest. The orb lasts for 20 seconds. You can have a maximum of 10 void orbs.

Void Orbs (Passive): The void orb travels with the caster, and generates 1 insanity every 2 seconds. While in voidform, Void Bolt consumes 1 orb per cast, and pauses slows down insanity drain by 10% for 5 seconds. This effect stacks. At 10 stacks, you stop draining all insanity for 15 seconds.

Essentially, going into voidform with 10 orbs > consuming all 10 orbs via Void Bolt (or other spells too?) > Get your insanity drain to slow out / get paused altogether.

In an ideal world, a shadow priest entering an M+ fight with 10 orbs and near-to-max insanity - should be topping that fight (especially with hero and such).

Option 2: Void empowerment while in Voidform. Right now, the only spell affected by voidform and/or void-eruption is Void bolt + our dots. This needs to be enhanced.

While in voidform:

a) Mind Flay becomes Void Tendril - a 1.5 second cast that channels mind flay on your target, and generates double insanity. Max 2 charges, 6 second recharge. Upon leaving voidform, all void tendrils disappear after 3 seconds.

b) Mind Blast also gains one additional charge while in voidform, and cast time reduced to one second. (So if you take SW:Void, you will have 3 charges, and baseline 2 at least while in voidform).

c) Shadow Crash (this should be baseline already): When casted in voidform, it slows insanity drain by 15% for each target hit, maximum 4 targets.

Again, the current voidform offers such little benefits that we want to cast that void eruption so much more than staying in voidform. We need to be given reasons to stay (+1 charge of MB, void tentrils, etc) would make us want to cast as many tendrils as possible.

(cont'd below cause I reached 5000 character limit wtf!!)
Option 3: Return of the Dots (okay fine, cheesy title...). Shadow, imo, should be the master of dots - our dots really need to be feared (PVE only - scaling can be tuned as needed for PVP). Baseline duration of SW:Pain increased to 20 seconds, Baseline duration of VT increased to 30 seconds.

a) Residual Suffering (New Passive) - Every time our dots crit (or every X seconds), it applies a stack of itself on the target its remaining duration. Max X stacks. Kind of making SW:Pain + VT behave like like Agony. Void bolt always applies procs Residual Suffering. Void Bolt Crits proc Residual Suffering twice. Additional stacks also generate extra insanity.

b) Mental Anguish (new passive): Occurs when Shadowy Apparitions hit our target. Deals X void damage over 15 seconds and increases magic damage taken by 1%. Mental Anguish stacks up to 5 times. Further hits increase duration by 5 seconds each, up to a maximum of 40 seconds.

c) Void Seed 1 second cast (replaces Shadow crash, 15 second cooldown): Plant a void seed in the target. After 6 seconds it deals X AOE shadow damage to all targets within 8 yards. If casted in voidform, Void Seed detonates in 3 seconds.

Option 4: Making us a true support class. While we may not top meters, our utility / off-healing / healer support should be amongst the best

a) Vamp Embrace made into a passive aura again (much like the prot warrior aura?) scaling off-of the priest's damage. The activated ability should be a proper healing CD, at about 50-65% effectiveness of a healer's raid cooldown.

b) Mental Assault (shadow only): Instant cast, 35 yard range. Ranged AOE disarm - prevents the use of melee abilities for 5 seconds. Only works on non-boss targets.

c) Mind Link: VT-based Mana battery return as a alternative to Blessing of Wisdom. Targeted cast.

There's really no shortage of ideas - could probably think of 15-20 more if I got paid to do it :P But alas, that's not my job. This dev team has done such a poor job of communicating their vision for this spec, and of late, I think the game in general, that anything that resembles lengthy and constructive feedback seems to be perpetually ignored.

Disclaimer: We would need to test it to ensure that we cannot hit permanent Voidform or go mad crazy on charts with these suggested changes. These are just suggested mechanical changes, and would need proper numbers tuning.
up
Reported it in-game on the PTR but maybe someone smart can figure it out.

Issue with this azerite trait.
Thought Harvester
Vampiric Touch damage is increased by 112, and each time Vampiric Touch deals damage you have a chance to increase the damage of your next Mind Sear within 20 sec by 300%.


So I noticed in my combatlog that often the increased damage from Mind Sear isn't applied.

I'm simple casting Vampiric Touch on a dummy target. Wait for a Thought Harvester proc and cast it.
What I should see is;
Your Mind Sear hit Raider's Training Dummy 5,424 Shadow
What I actually get;
Your Mind Sear hit Raider's Training Dummy 1,348 Shadow
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This is pure speculating on my part, but it looks like the first it procs and you cast Mind Sear, that the proc isn't consumed (by that I mean, the icon buff and glow around the spell are still there)

Yet, when you cast it a second time it acts as it is a normal Mind Sear. All followed procs are counted as normal from there on, and only some hidden reset (or relogging) seems to "fix" it.
-------------------------------------

Also, Mind Flay animation is broken.
A support/buff spec sounds good. Like in BC. We could be caster/healer support and Enhancement could be melee support like the Windfury days. It seems like Blizzard doesn't know what our strengths and weaknesses are anyways.

Every expac, they give one spec all strengths and no weaknesses. Like Afflock in Legion, now Havoc DH in BFA.
Shadow should be support. It doesn’t need to top charts just have enough utility to offer so we are wanted again. Priests after all are a support class.
11/10/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Syridis
Shadow should be support. It doesn’t need to top charts just have enough utility to offer so we are wanted again. Priests after all are a support class.


How would you balance a support class in a world where group sizes range from 5 to 30 for pve content?

How would you balance a support class in a world where group sizes range from 5 to 30?


You cannot. But being middle in ST, bottom-5 in aoe, and say top 5 in Cleave/multi target is great. But that design philosophy requires fights to be designed in that manner. Right now, every Uldir fight is 'burst add(s), survive boss, avoid mechanics'. For the record, 'burst' (imo) implies that the target die within 10-30 secs tops. Not 1-2 minute targets.

Also, they can offer support in terms of permanent niche buffs, like they used to in the past. But then, M+ wasn't prevalent, and overall utility balance was still okay. I believe there were 10-13 raid buffs that were being offered by 1-3 class/specs each, so balancing them was okay.

What sucks right now is that the specs with the most burst damage (top priority in m+) are also the ones that offer unique buffs, and also the ones to have best control, and also the ones to have better movement. How the dev team made that decision is beyond me.
10/22/2018 07:35 PMPosted by Bozwix
It took until 8.1 for this? This feels like stuff you can and should have rolled out weeks after release in an 8.0.5 patch


Exactly. -_-
VE should be baked into shadow form as 15% dps to heals for raid - this will be a weaker permanent version of attonement and a new CD to leech mana to the raid should be given to shadow to be in line with a lesser version of holy priest mana support CD.
11/10/2018 06:14 PMPosted by Syridis
VE should be baked into shadow form as 15% dps to heals for raid - this will be a weaker permanent version of attonement and a new CD to leech mana to the raid should be given to shadow to be in line with a lesser version of holy priest mana support CD.


I liked the Wrath of the Lich King version. 30 minute buff that healed the entire raid for 3.5% of all damage you dealt.

I loved doing damage and watching little green numbers everywhere.
Yeah those were the days. :)
I haven't looked up any more recent changes, but a week ago, all I saw was a vomit of buffs to make Shadow blatantly overpowered.
Is that still the plan?
Can't/Won't fix it, just over-buff it for a patch or two until it gets nerfed?

This is the same issue they had when this spec was called Demonology Warlock during MOP and WOD, nightmare to balance, always overpowered or completely MIA. I'm not even sure how you fix it without another rework that rids the game of Voidform/Metamorphosis(Warlock version) once and for all, because it seems like the whole "alternating burst windows on short cooldowns" design is just not something they can manage.

11/10/2018 10:19 PMPosted by Thorhammer
I liked the Wrath of the Lich King version. 30 minute buff that healed the entire raid for 3.5% of all damage you dealt.

It wasn't balanced, but I had so much fun with Conductivity on Ele Shaman during MOP. The first version was just a giant 100% leech on your Lightning spells to everyone standing in Healing Rain, and even the 2nd version was your lightning spells basically letting you keep up 30sec long Healing Rains.
It was really fun to have that off-healing utility.

Of course, that's all gone, and it was replaced by... uh... um... oh right Elemental Shaman can only lose spells and utility.
11/11/2018 12:49 AMPosted by Chromey
I haven't looked up any more recent changes, but a week ago, all I saw was a vomit of buffs to make Shadow blatantly overpowered.
Is that still the plan?
Can't/Won't fix it, just over-buff it for a patch or two until it gets nerfed?


Did you even bother to look at the "buffs"? There was a small buff to void form and then a damage aura nerf to counter, along with a massive nerf on the best azerite trait. Most people are looking at a ~4% buff. How is that overpowered?

You are right that it fixes nothing. It's just a straight up hotfix level adjustment, like every other spec that was expecting a "rework". Even the so-called survivability buff is probably a wash at best; better at times, worse at others.
11/11/2018 01:44 AMPosted by Moonshayde
11/11/2018 12:49 AMPosted by Chromey
I haven't looked up any more recent changes, but a week ago, all I saw was a vomit of buffs to make Shadow blatantly overpowered.
Is that still the plan?
Can't/Won't fix it, just over-buff it for a patch or two until it gets nerfed?


Did you even bother to look at the "buffs"? There was a small buff to void form and then a damage aura nerf to counter, along with a massive nerf on the best azerite trait. Most people are looking at a ~4% buff. How is that overpowered?

You are right that it fixes nothing. It's just a straight up hotfix level adjustment, like every other spec that was expecting a "rework". Even the so-called survivability buff is probably a wash at best; better at times, worse at others.


Why they waited so long to do these changes is beyond me.
Yup.
We have Voidform adjustments that could have easily been in for the tuning pass. Have gained a small buff to form, and to compensate, we lost ground on the baseline aura. Voidform is only slightly longer, so that's more time lost we could be working towards another Eruption. But hey, we got something for a slightly buffed dispersion, just that is a talent that competes with our only reliable movement ability.

Oh, let's not forget Focused Will that is completely useless as we need to receive damage for it to kick in to reduced damage taken, only to replace a 10% flat DR that is up in Shadow Form.

Pack of numpties running the show, ignoring issues reported since Legion's Beta, and still not seen to our rotational %^-* ups.

And not only that, on numerous bug reports, Voidform graphics still !@#$s out when glyphed for the second expansion now!
11/11/2018 03:12 AMPosted by Rockford

And not only that, on numerous bug reports, Voidform graphics still !@#$s out when glyphed for the second expansion now!


Yea it's not high on my list of complaints right now, but new Voidform is easily the worst version they have ever done.

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