Shadow Priest Changes in 8.1

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Quick question: Will Shadow's version of Focused Will stack up to 2 times?
10/22/2018 08:01 PMPosted by Newronka
10/22/2018 07:39 PMPosted by Eclipen

Did you miss the Marksman changes they announced like a week ago? There was an entire post, longer than this, about MM specifically for 8.1.

Missing the point. This post was mostly on pvp focus. Trick Shot its core mechanic how Marks do aoe dmg and its not working. Logs from m+ shows how bad Marksman is on m+ content. There is none Markman Hunters in m+15 at all. Everyspec has someone there but no marksman.

I just checked 18 there are in fact marksman >.>
Praise N'Zoth! These changes sound good, will focus on my priest next.
Can’t believe my eyes, a legitimate blue post.

I’m not surprised Voidform is sticking around though I wish it wasn’t. Seems like half decent changes all things considered.

Additional stuff that needs looked at:

1) shadow word: death still talent, why?
2) edge of insanity needs change or go tbh. A pvp talent to significantly buff self healing through damage should replace it.
3) cast time on void eruption still exists why?
4) void bolt being on cooldown when you enter void form feels really bad. Change that please.
5) does the new focused will apply in voidform as well?

That’s all I got for now, thanks!
These changes are going to make them even more broken in pvp tho :) congrats to the pve'rs tho
10/22/2018 07:14 PMPosted by Seph
Insanity drain increase per second in Voidform reduced by 15%
Void Bolt Insanity generation increased by 25%

I feel there is a disconnect between how Voidforms and Shadow's cooldowns have synergized with each other with the Insanity model.
Nighthold: Power Infusion was used every 3rd Voidform, with torrent on 1 and 2.
Tomb of Sargeras: Mindbender and Void Torrent were used every Voidform.
Antorus the Burning Throne: Mindbender and Void Torrent were used every Voidform.
Uldir: Mindbender and DA are used every other Voidform.

Voidform has, up until these changes, worked in intervals of either 30sec or a minute. These changes bring the insanity drain to near post-ToV changes at 6+.7/sec (compared to 6+.66/sec) with half of the Voidform haste.

Our current cooldowns are, with their respective cooldown duration:
Shadowfiend - 3min
Mindbender - 1min
Dark Ascension - 1min
Void Torrent - 45sec
Surrender to Madness (post changes) - 3min

It is not feasible for our current 1mins to sync with Voidform like they did in ToV and ABT since we do not have the sufficient haste to allow it. This means that, if taken, effective use of these cooldowns will either be unintuitive (in the case of Mindbender casting on cooldown instead of syncing with Voidform) or inefficient (in the case of Dark Ascension and cutting a Voidform in half in order to keep it on cooldown). As such, we will either be restricted to have unintuitive cooldown usage or relegated to cooldowns whose use sync with the new Voidform cycle. I hypothesize with these changes that cycle would be near 45sec, in which Shadowfiend, Void Torrent, and Surrender to Madness all work well with.

The issue here is that the design space with Shadow's talents are severely limited if they do not all work with the current Voidform cycle. In this case, all talents whose cooldowns are not in multiples of 45sec.

TL;DR: Reducing the drain rate makes current choice talents not sync well with Voidforms without using them inefficiently. All cooldown talents should have cooldowns of the same multiple and each Voidform cycle should be designed to that target multiple (right now it is 30sec).
I dont use the forum very much, but i NEED to vent out my stuff before i drop this... thing.

First of all, i am not the owner of truth, that is just my feeling about the spec and people should understand by what it is: My opinion.

From my perspective, Blizzard had 3 paths for Shadow: 1) Stick with Voidform (VF) and work the spec around it. 2) make VF a talent and work around it. 3) Remove VF at once and revamp the spec. I believe blizz took the easiest route on the option 1, and it IS easier to balance and work around with what we already have, but here is where I'm disappointed: After all this time and waiting, I am on the "team option 3: No more VF", like many people like me (and i recognize that people have different opinions). I want to explain why feel that way.

The reason why i dislike VF is pretty funny: It is BFA PvP. The no VF Build. With mania+Edge of insanity, and never casting VF, it remembers me of what a Shadow Priest is suposed to be on my view: Blanket pressure with dots, some focused dmg with MB/Mind Flay, heavy CC (Silence/Stun/Fear) and EXECUTE! i have FUN with the spec in pvp. Not because of our almost immortal setup (that will get worse with this changes), but because the flow of the rotation and the spec, the feeling of utility! That, with the old spectral guise + some heavy dot like devouring plague + Vamp. Embrace off GDC would make me so happy. But that was a dream.

On raid, VF forces me on a 3 button rotation on PVE. Yes, some numbers were fun on legion, but after remembering the old ways... i dont want that race against insanity anymore. I want to use my arsenal of abilities. Even on a Mythic+ environment we work kinda well, since i have many things to use with the present version of shadow, but the changes on the ptr will only make VF longer, and i still want to get out to aoe burst (Dark Void + shadow crash + Void Eruption). A short but impactifull VF does a better job than a long one.

I wasnt expecting number tunning, to be fair our numbers were middle of the pack on raid and good on PvP and Dungeons. I was expecting a rework on the flow of the spec, i wanted to feel something new (or old)! and now, that you are just tweaking numbers, after waiting for the so called 8.1 major changes, i can say this: i dont want this thing anymore!

im sorry for the walltext, and for my bad english. I just had to say it loud before droping it.
75% damage reduction, 50% movement speed increase AND 50% of your total health healed for the duration? 10% physical damage reduction to 15% ALL damage reduction?
10/22/2018 07:14 PMPosted by Seph
we think we went a little too far

I think you've gone a little bit further than that.
Thank you Blizz!!!!!
Don't understand the fear and mind bomb buff. Is that for PvP?? Seems to make it more dangerous in m+ if it fails to break. Please add searing dialogue azerite trait slow (currently on ptr) as baseline.
10/22/2018 08:52 PMPosted by Apropos
75% damage reduction, 50% movement speed increase AND 50% of your total health healed for the duration? 10% physical damage reduction to 15% ALL damage reduction?
10/22/2018 07:14 PMPosted by Seph
we think we went a little too far

I think you've gone a little bit further than that.

Focused Will doesnt trigger unless you're getting melee'd.
I mained my Spriest from July 06 till my guild died during HFC, when I returned to the game in legion and saw what you had done to shadow I switched mains.

I wanted to switch back to it for BFA but these are some of the reasons I didn't.

    Voidform didn't get removed....
    Shadow Word: Death is still a talent....
    Void Tendrils haven't been readded....
    Cascade, Halo and D Star talent line not readded....
    2 distinct play styles (AS - CoP) for different fight types not readded....
    Feathers still not readded to our movement toolkit....
    Glyph to reverse Lifegrip not readded....
    Spectral Guise not readded as Talent....
    No twist of fate buff either to be more %dmg or trigger from a higher HP

Until some if not most of these are changed why would I wanna play a worse version of my Spriest ? Why did you go so backwards from WoD, Legion shadow was not a fun or rewarding playstyle, it was punishing (more punishing then getting no orbs on pull during cata)
There are no current ways to really "extend" VF so there is nothing to work towards. Because of the changes YOU guys made to how quickly insanity drains and because VoiT is no longer baseline and a joke of a talent.

Only now you're deciding "oops our bad", problem is you're only reversing half the changes.

Taking "Intangibility" now means foregoing B&S meaning we have zero movement outside of dispersion. The essence of this talent was baseline through our artifact in Legion.

Why is VoiT not baseline? Why is SW:D, a spell we've had since BC, now a talent? Is it really that much of a challenge to think of a talent to replace SW:D with so we can have it back as baseline? Will we have to wait until the *NEXT* expansion for you guys to realize "lol maybe we shouldn't have done that" like you did with LoF?

Every single aspect of BFA shadow plays worse than Legion with the minor exception of not being far and away the worst AOE spec anymore with DV, SC and DA. Numbers-wise, still terrible relative to most other specs. Just look at the lack of SP representation in mythic logs. It's abysmal. I'm only able to somewhat compete in raid because I'm 380 ilvl.

I can't think of a better adage to apply to Shadow's recent design philosophy, and to BFA overall, than "1 step forward 2 steps back"
Seriously? No one at Blizzard could have posted months ago that Shadow was actually being looked at. We were in the dark for this entire expansion. I asked yes or no about a rework so many times and nothing.

Then, after all that time, this is the result? The dev team is garbage. No wonder they brought in Holinka to straighten you guys out.
What is the hallucinations talent being replaced with?
- Please something cool. Like devouring plague.

Are you concerned about stacking focused will with edge of insanity?

- This will be a what, 15% + 20% damage reduction in and out of voidform? Concerning.

Clarify this please.
Okay changes, but your still missing the mark badly here. These fixes are going to make it abit less miserable to play, but theres a opportunity here to do alot more then that.

  • Shadow Word: Death
  • Why is this still a talent? What design reason is there for this still, it makes no sense. The only thing I can think of is no ideas what to replace it with, which is just crazy.
    and give the player more agency over extending its duration
    SW:D was one of the biggest tools for giving players agency in extending its duration, it added alot of decision making to the rotation in execute, with 3 generators making sure to keep all on CD, plus the ability to extend void forms with good use on trash in M+. This is the agency we need.

  • Shadow Word:Void
  • This has been covered in a few of the posts in this thread, but I feel the need to
    continually put this out there. This clip from viklund showcases this issue very
    This issue is not unique to shadow priests, as has been covered previously with
    Warriors and Hunters. There is a very obvious, quick and easy fix and I assume
    your only reasoning against it is concern against a creeping of spells with
    charges. If that is the concern, please don't sacrifice the flow of shadows core
    rotation because of an overall design issue spread over all classes.

  • Dispersion
  • These changes are good, although I would like to understand the thought behind attaching the new talent on the same row as Body and Soul, at this time I don't think I can ever seen a reason to take the new talent over Body and Soul, simply put B&S is our ONLY mobility, and without it we become the only class without a speed boost. We have NO mobility baseline, which I don't think can be said of any other class. I would suggest moving B&S to becoming baseline at the minimum, also does the PW:S weakened soul change to disc in 8.1 also affect shadow as well?

  • Hallucinations
  • Simple, but effective change. I love this. One of the most frustrating things as a shadow priest relative to some of my other alts was using utility often "reset" your rotation, which many many other specs just don't have this issue.

  • Cooldowns
  • I do agree with everything ryeshot a poster just above me stated about the issues shadow has with cooldowns.
    I also think Shadowfiend needs a rework as a cooldown entirely. It is absolutely the most boring DPS CD amongst any spec in my opinion. Literally all it does is some melee damage and 3 insanity per attack, it's so weak for what is meant to be a major DPS CD at 3min CD. This needs adjustment, but I suspect the difficulty lies in improving shadowfiend without making mindbender OP or underpowered.

    As ryeshot said, the devs needs to take a closer look at cooldowns for shadow priests, any adjustments to void form cycles should always trigger a re tuning of the DPS cds for shadow to maintain the cyclical nature of the spec.

  • Void Torrent
  • Great changes here, absolutely needed to generate insanity. Only thing I can suggest here is I do think it should be castable while moving. I think this would help our mobility greatly, especially if not choosing Body and Soul. Admittedly, I can't speak as to what issues that would cause for PvP balancing. Could also do with a slight adjustment to it's CD as I think making it return to the once per void form cycle would improve the flow greatly.

  • S2M
  • I think we do need a blue post regarding this talent. It has been in maitenance mode ever since nighthold due to its relative strength in pre ToS content. However that has now been 18 months + where this talent is just sitting there with an extreme niche.

    We need a post detailing the intent behind the modern version of the talent, what the goals are, what you guys think it should and should not be able to do, because at the moment it feels like its just there because you love the concept of the talent, but don't actually have any idea what to do with it either. (Which is fair, I don't either because I absolutely loved the concept, but I recognize it just might simply be impossible to balance in WoW.)

Thanks for finally taking the time to address some of the issues Shadow has had in BFA. There are some good changes here, but we do have an opportunity to make some better changes here too.

Also, will focused will only stack once or twice?
10/22/2018 09:19 PMPosted by Waywithwords
Seriously? No one at Blizzard could have posted months ago that Shadow was actually being looked at. We were in the dark for this entire expansion. I asked yes or no about a rework so many times and nothing.

Then, after all that time, this is the result? The dev team is garbage. No wonder they brought in Holinka to straighten you guys out.

They have mentioned multiple times in the Q&As that shadow was being looked at. We were not in the dark.
10/22/2018 07:35 PMPosted by Eclipen
Nobody said get rid of Voidform in Legion when it made them unstoppable gods. They only said that when it suddenly made their rotation trash, and actually detrimented them to stay in it.

No been saying it since it was implemented. Even when we were "unstoppable gods" we were trash in Dungeons, these changes will just make use trash in dungeons again.
These changes are trash. They didnt really didnt change much. Still too many spells overlapping with themselves within the rotation. Really this is nothing more than a numbers adjustment and a bunch of PVP buffs
10/22/2018 07:42 PMPosted by Lothain
Don't be dramatic. Enhancement has a unique but viable playstyle, it's the community who listens too much to streamers and don't invit enhc. They are cool. Not in a dire state at all. They need work, but no need for this "I'm the readheaded stepchild".

Lmao, Enhance plays like a !@#$tier Fury Warrior right now. "Unique" as in press 1 button and hope that button lights up to be pressed again or do no damage. Warriors and DHs provide a more fun version of the %^-*ty new Enhance playstyle. And viable as in low-middle of the pack? Zero raid utility, no reason to bring the spec.

They're half decent in PvP but that's only because anything that can self heal is good at the moment. Which is meaningless for people who don't touch that side of the game, anyway.

Yes their numbers aren't awful, but the core concept of the class feels like garbage. Giving Enhance rage was a stupid idea, the spec shares nothing with the rest of the class in its rotation, it doesn't feel like a Shaman anymore.

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