Why is SoR better than SoC for DPS?

Classic Discussion
Yeah, yeah… lolret.

Now that THAT is out of the way, can someone (probably Theloras) help me understand Why SoR is better than SoC for Paladin DPS rotation? I’m not understanding the math.

Here is what I understand:
1. SoC is 7 ppm, so SoC ends up doing more damage on a 15 DPS weapon with Swing speed of 4 (60 damage *1 swing per 4 seconds), than a 15 DPS weapon with a swing speed of 2 (30 damage* 1 swing per 2 seconds).
2. Reckoning can only proc SoC on the 1st swing, whereas SoR will boost the damage of all 4 stacks of Reckoning. So in PvP you wanna combine Reckbombing with SoR.

But here is what I DON'T understand:
1. Whereas SOC scales with weapon damage, and SoR does not,
And SoC scales better with Spell Damage (per Theloras’s guide) than SoR,
Why is it better to go with SoR if your weapon has anything faster than 3.5 Swing Speed??

Does it have to do with imp SoR in the holy tree? Is it that there is simply no weapon in the game with a swing speed faster than 3.5 that has enough base damage with SoC on it to surpass SoR?

Any examples and numbers would be appreciated.
I hate to say it, but these forums are likely not going to be the best place to find theorycrafters. I'd suggest joining several of the available discords for vanilla. Plenty of theorycrafting goes on there.
SoR actually scales better over time with spell damage than SoComm does.

While SoComm intakes 20% of spell damage(29% Holy damage, but that's mostly just going to be JotC). It procs 7 times per minute which means over the course of 1 minute of using SoComm you'll average dealing 140% of your spell damage to the target as damage.

With SoR it's 10% per swing. With a 2.0 speed weapon you'll swing 30 times which is 300% of your spell damage per minute dealt as damage.

and with SoR builds you'll be using a 1-hander that's likely to be faster than a 2.0 swing speed.

On top of this, SoR can proc additional chance on hit effects giving you 2 chances per swing to proc them.
11/09/2018 09:48 PMPosted by Sabetha
SoR actually scales better over time with spell damage than SoComm does.

While SoComm intakes 20% of spell damage(29% Holy damage, but that's mostly just going to be JotC). It procs 7 times per minute which means over the course of 1 minute of using SoComm you'll average dealing 140% of your spell damage to the target as damage.

With SoR it's 10% per swing. With a 2.0 speed weapon you'll swing 30 times which is 300% of your spell damage per minute dealt as damage.

and with SoR builds you'll be using a 1-hander that's likely to be faster than a 2.0 swing speed.

On top of this, SoR can proc additional chance on hit effects giving you 2 chances per swing to proc them.


you seem to be really well informed. so you're saying that when i level my paladin in vanilla i should use a 1h sword and board build with SoR and a fast sword?
11/10/2018 12:20 AMPosted by Matcauthon
11/09/2018 09:48 PMPosted by Sabetha
SoR actually scales better over time with spell damage than SoComm does.

While SoComm intakes 20% of spell damage(29% Holy damage, but that's mostly just going to be JotC). It procs 7 times per minute which means over the course of 1 minute of using SoComm you'll average dealing 140% of your spell damage to the target as damage.

With SoR it's 10% per swing. With a 2.0 speed weapon you'll swing 30 times which is 300% of your spell damage per minute dealt as damage.

and with SoR builds you'll be using a 1-hander that's likely to be faster than a 2.0 swing speed.

On top of this, SoR can proc additional chance on hit effects giving you 2 chances per swing to proc them.


you seem to be really well informed. so you're saying that when i level my paladin in vanilla i should use a 1h sword and board build with SoR and a fast sword?


kargoz did a pretty fantastic video on the topic, have a quick search on youtube for it.
dont forget about vengeace uptime;
its harder to calculate result dps output becouse of how Vengeanсe works;
remember that SoR never crits, and JoR crits from s.crit(and also based on spell hit wich is very bad design), for paladin it is impossible to reach spellhit cap. AND you also should be melee hit capped

while SoC crits from meleecrit alongside with JoC( which is on melee hit also ),

vengeance adds holy and phys dmg bonuses, and holy abilities based on phys(SoC) have doubledeep scaling

SoC also proc on hit effects
Because Seal of Crusader got a totally unnecessary hit from the nerf bat in patch 1.2.2
11/09/2018 09:48 PMPosted by Sabetha
SoR actually scales better over time with spell damage than SoComm does.

While SoComm intakes 20% of spell damage(29% Holy damage, but that's mostly just going to be JotC). It procs 7 times per minute which means over the course of 1 minute of using SoComm you'll average dealing 140% of your spell damage to the target as damage.

With SoR it's 10% per swing. With a 2.0 speed weapon you'll swing 30 times which is 300% of your spell damage per minute dealt as damage.

and with SoR builds you'll be using a 1-hander that's likely to be faster than a 2.0 swing speed.

On top of this, SoR can proc additional chance on hit effects giving you 2 chances per swing to proc them.


Ok, I'm starting to understand...I think. I just created an experiment in excel, and all else being equal, (weapon, spell power) SoR does indeed do more damage, no matter how much spell power or lack thereof you have.

Also, I realize I was mistaken about Theloras's guide. His weapon speed comment was comparing SotC with SoC. He says that if your weapon speed is 3.4 or faster, then SotC is better. So i guess this is what I I'm still confused about:

Why wouldn't you Judge SotC, which is refreshed with melee strikes, and keep SoR up? The holy damage bonus from SotC combined with the holy damage from SoR should be the best DPS. What am I not understanding about how the weapon speed affects this?
You won't use reckoning if ur dpsing as a paladin. It requires you to take crits and if you take crits in a raid your probably ded by the second crit.
11/09/2018 09:28 PMPosted by Essaranor
Yeah, yeah… lolret.

Now that THAT is out of the way, can someone (probably Theloras) help me understand Why SoR is better than SoC for Paladin DPS rotation? I’m not understanding the math.

Here is what I understand:
1. SoC is 7 ppm, so SoC ends up doing more damage on a 15 DPS weapon with Swing speed of 4 (60 damage *1 swing per 4 seconds), than a 15 DPS weapon with a swing speed of 2 (30 damage* 1 swing per 2 seconds).
2. Reckoning can only proc SoC on the 1st swing, whereas SoR will boost the damage of all 4 stacks of Reckoning. So in PvP you wanna combine Reckbombing with SoR.

But here is what I DON'T understand:
1. Whereas SOC scales with weapon damage, and SoR does not,
And SoC scales better with Spell Damage (per Theloras’s guide) than SoR,
Why is it better to go with SoR if your weapon has anything faster than 3.5 Swing Speed??

Does it have to do with imp SoR in the holy tree? Is it that there is simply no weapon in the game with a swing speed faster than 3.5 that has enough base damage with SoC on it to surpass SoR?

Any examples and numbers would be appreciated.


Fast 1hand weapon + Spell dmg + SoR/JoR + Shadow Oil + Dragonbreath Chili

- Shadow Oil has a flat 15% proc rate and scales at 56% of spell dmg
- Dragonbreath Chili has a 5-10% proc rate and scales at 100% of spell dmg
- More/faster procs you can put out = more Vengeance uptime

You can also join our theorycrafting discord as well here - https://discord.gg/ES4mhr

These gloves along with Judgement of Wisdom make mana a non-issue as seen in the video at the bottom by Exodia:

Black Grasp of the Destroyer
Item Level 70
Binds when equipped
Hands Mail
279 Armor
Durability 50 / 50
Requires Level 60
Equip: +28 Attack Power.
Equip: Improves your chance to get a critical strike by 1%.
Equip: On successful melee or ranged attack gain 8 mana and if possible drain 8 mana from the target.
https://classic.wowhead.com/item=22194/black-grasp-of-the-destroyer

MANA TEST - 5mins15 sec Rank 5 Consecration Paladin Pre BC - 1000 DPS (No CoE/CoS 970 DPS via end)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzQ83AtI1xs
seal of righteousness has the ability to proc procs as if the holy damage from seal of righteousness was a melee attack; by abusing proc gear+spell damage gear, you can attain good dps as a ret paladin, getting to 1100+ in naxx BiS gear
with that build, your white damage is only a cherry on top

but then a rogue can pull 2800+ dps in naxx BiS gear by abusing proc+spell damage gear(and with feint+vanish!), while fury warriors can pull 1500+ dps as a gnome with naxx BiS regular dps gear(and thats without windfury totem or being a human), so rets still suck in comparison
11/10/2018 09:10 AMPosted by Essaranor
11/09/2018 09:48 PMPosted by Sabetha
SoR actually scales better over time with spell damage than SoComm does.

While SoComm intakes 20% of spell damage(29% Holy damage, but that's mostly just going to be JotC). It procs 7 times per minute which means over the course of 1 minute of using SoComm you'll average dealing 140% of your spell damage to the target as damage.

With SoR it's 10% per swing. With a 2.0 speed weapon you'll swing 30 times which is 300% of your spell damage per minute dealt as damage.

and with SoR builds you'll be using a 1-hander that's likely to be faster than a 2.0 swing speed.

On top of this, SoR can proc additional chance on hit effects giving you 2 chances per swing to proc them.


Ok, I'm starting to understand...I think. I just created an experiment in excel, and all else being equal, (weapon, spell power) SoR does indeed do more damage, no matter how much spell power or lack thereof you have.

Also, I realize I was mistaken about Theloras's guide. His weapon speed comment was comparing SotC with SoC. He says that if your weapon speed is 3.4 or faster, then SotC is better. So i guess this is what I I'm still confused about:

Why wouldn't you Judge SotC, which is refreshed with melee strikes, and keep SoR up? The holy damage bonus from SotC combined with the holy damage from SoR should be the best DPS. What am I not understanding about how the weapon speed affects this?


That was when SotC and Consecration were bugged due to the way Stock Mangos was coded (the core server code upon which all private servers were based).

Seal of the Crusader was the DPS Seal to use since it was in its un-nerfed state providing +40% haste and a huge AP bonus without the "does less damage with each swing" bs - likewise Consecration was scaling with ATTACK POWER which meant that having SotC when you dropped Consecration, boosted its damage by a large margin.

Case in point - I had The Untamed Blade back on Nost - and we were running ZG Bat boss one day. During the bat add phase, I got a sword proc which does +300 STR and I dropped my Consecration on the bat pack.

My Consecration ticks were hitting for like 300+ on each mob.
Ret is not a DPS spec. The sooner you accept that, the better.
11/10/2018 01:39 PMPosted by Araska
Ret is not a DPS spec. The sooner you accept that, the better.

Demon Hunters are that edgy class that will not exist in classic.

The sooner you accept that, the better.
11/10/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Tarregor
seal of righteousness has the ability to proc procs as if the holy damage from seal of righteousness was a melee attack; by abusing proc gear+spell damage gear, you can attain good dps as a ret paladin, getting to 1100+ in naxx BiS gear
with that build, your white damage is only a cherry on top

but then a rogue can pull 2800+ dps in naxx BiS gear by abusing proc+spell damage gear(and with feint+vanish!), while fury warriors can pull 1500+ dps as a gnome with naxx BiS regular dps gear(and thats without windfury totem or being a human), so rets still suck in comparison


You're comparing completely different test settings in this description - the proc items you speak of that got a Rogue to 2800 DPS are Fiery Retributer, Blazefury Medallion (Paladins can also use both of them and the Fiery Plate/Storm Gauntlets).

If they end up scaling with spell dmg, then the Paladin will be able to do on par if not greater DPS since their gear already utilizes spell damage and they already use spell damage consumables. So unless your guild is going to prio all BiS spell dmg gear to Rogues instead of casters...

Meanwhile, SoR/JoR + spell dmg = working as intended 1k+ DPS without those proc items.

The Gnome Warrior also ended at 1235 DPS, not 1500. A Human Warrior can do 1500 however.

11/10/2018 01:39 PMPosted by Araska
Ret is not a DPS spec. The sooner you accept that, the better.


/no

/kind regards
11/10/2018 01:39 PMPosted by Araska
Ret is not a DPS spec. The sooner you accept that, the better.


If someone can make the numbers work, then all power to them. I'm not going to be advertising "Off-specs who want it to be like in Retail welcome!", but if someone is able to do competitive DPS, then they're in.

That said, I don't trust anything from private servers, and with how hardcore many of us were back in original Vanilla, it's highly unlikely we just happened to miss it. Blizzard may also unfortunately retune (Deliberately or not) and make it more viable.
That was when SotC and Consecration were bugged due to the way Stock Mangos was coded (the core server code upon which all private servers were based).

Seal of the Crusader was the DPS Seal to use since it was in its un-nerfed state providing +40% haste and a huge AP bonus without the "does less damage with each swing" bs - likewise Consecration was scaling with ATTACK POWER which meant that having SotC when you dropped Consecration, boosted its damage by a large margin.

Case in point - I had The Untamed Blade back on Nost - and we were running ZG Bat boss one day. During the bat add phase, I got a sword proc which does +300 STR and I dropped my Consecration on the bat pack.

My Consecration ticks were hitting for like 300+ on each mob.


Ah, ok. Got it. Really appreciate the help, guys. I'll definitely look for you guys on discord. So before bringing in any special weapons whose procs might scale off spell damage...

1. Am I correct in understanding that in actual vanilla/classic without these bugs you should keep JotC, and SoR up? I'm assuming BoW for long boss fights? I'm also guessing that you never judge, because then you'd have to reapply JotC, and SoR, but correct me if I'm wrong.

2. So then what is the formula for determining how weapon speed/damage/DPS affects SoR bonus holy damage? The tooltip only says "slower weapons cause more holy damage per swing."
11/10/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Tarregor
seal of righteousness has the ability to proc procs as if the holy damage from seal of righteousness was a melee attack; by abusing proc gear+spell damage gear, you can attain good dps as a ret paladin, getting to 1100+ in naxx BiS gear
with that build, your white damage is only a cherry on top

but then a rogue can pull 2800+ dps in naxx BiS gear by abusing proc+spell damage gear(and with feint+vanish!), while fury warriors can pull 1500+ dps as a gnome with naxx BiS regular dps gear(and thats without windfury totem or being a human), so rets still suck in comparison


Thanks for the info, Tarregor. So, let's say a ret pally has maelstrom trinket, and 200 years after classic launches FINALLY is allowed by his guild to roll on both bindings of the Windseeker. Does both the weapon swing, AND the SoR holy damage give an opportunity for Thunderfury and maelstrom to proc? (not asking if they scale with spell damage...yet, :). Just if their proc chance in increased.)

1. Am I correct in understanding that in actual vanilla/classic without these bugs you should keep JotC, and SoR up?


Yes

I'm assuming BoW for long boss fights? I'm also guessing that you never judge, because then you'd have to reapply JotC, and SoR, but correct me if I'm wrong.


You should have all relevant blessings in a raid setting. As for judging, you will judge Righteousness on cooldown. You will have to reapply your seal, but since Righteousness doesn't leave a debuff behind Crusader stays on the target to be refreshed by Melee swings.

2. So then what is the formula for determining how weapon speed/damage/DPS affects SoR bonus holy damage? The tooltip only says "slower weapons cause more holy damage per swing."


More or less, the speed of your weapon will not influence how much DPS Righteousness does by itself a meaningful amount. If your 1.0 weapon does 10 damage per swing, your 2.0 will do 20, your 3.0 30. That's not exact, but that's the method.
The build gets its teeth from abusing procs. SoR does the same damage on a fast weapon, but set percent buffs proc a lot more with a fast weapon and SoR doubling that chance.

Does both the weapon swing, AND the SoR holy damage give an opportunity for Thunderfury and maelstrom to proc?


Iirc, yes. That's the gist of this build.
go watch esfand he only talks about this every stream

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