Raider IO shouldn't exist. Blizzard's fault.

BFA Dungeons, Island Expeditions, and Raids
While running mythic+ people have told me to get raider IO, but I don't want another addon. What irritates me is that Blizzard has long overlooked huge game design flaws, if fixed then raider IO would not even be needed...

Issue #1: "How can you tell experienced vs. novice players when recruiting for group content, to not waste time and improve enjoyment". <---this is a perfectly valid issue, raider IO helps here.

Issue #2: "Why are so many players unaware of how to be productive in group content and encounter mechanics?"

I refuse to believe that a majority of WoW players are low IQ idiots. Anyone who has played classic RPG series Zelda, FE, Oblivion for the first time knows that when you first start out, you are clumsy at anything until you begin to experiment with the game and level up. Good game design will guide the player so that 60-100 hours later you can master the gameplay. In WoW, so much important gameplay knowledge is left completely unadvised in the actual game. This issue is now so propagated into endgame that mythic+ are miserable because Blizzard gives out high 370 ilvl gear to people who are not prepared for the difficulty level. AND Blizzard simultaneously does not integrate good gameplay knowledge into solo leveling, so people cant efficiently know how to get prepared... hence the rise of raider IO.

Listing ideas to fix this entrenched issue would be useless because Blizzard wont do anything anyways. Raider IO is probably here to stay because Blizzard dungeon design is completely uninspiring.
I mean, you covered half of the issue. The other half of the issue Raider.io is meant to address is knowledge of specific dungeons, such as the routes, what mechanics that needs to be interrupted vs ignored, etc. A very good play who never done mythic+ before will still under-perform compared to a equal caliber player with m+ experience by a significant margin.
The majority of wows player base are garbage players mostly because they cant be bothered to do research on how to play their class an/or dungeons/raids
There are two big reasons why Raider.io (or similar) is currently needed:

1) It tracks your progression in M+. - There's nothing in-game that can tell me what's my best run for a given dungeon or that can provide some information about past runs, who was in my group?, did we make or fail the timer and for how much?, etc. Raider.io provides this, as well as the ability to compare yourself with guildies, other players in your server (or in the world if you are that good), and much more.

2) Group Making - You simply can't rely on item level, while Raider.io is not perfect, it's very good (the biggest issue is actually on Blizzard side with the leaderboard so small that doesn't register every run). I see a lot of people complaining that it measure group performance and not individuals, while this is true it's also something that averages out in the long term, a better player will make enough of a difference in his groups to get better scores and timers than a weaker player. Having a consistent group composed of good players instead of pugging can ofc make a weaker player look better, but that's true for all team oriented games.
11/13/2018 01:39 PMPosted by Holymonky


1) It tracks your progression in M+. - There's nothing in-game that can tell me what's my best run for a given dungeon or that can provide some information about past runs, who was in my group?, did we make or fail the timer and for how much?, etc. Raider.io provides this, as well as the ability to compare yourself with guildies, other players in your server (or in the world if you are that good), and much more.


Well you can actually see your best run (based on key level first time second) of each dungeon and the names of the team you ran it with on a tab in the group finder tool but it doesn't rank you or show you runs that aren't your best like raider io does.
11/13/2018 12:06 PMPosted by Danerexles
The majority of wows player base are garbage players mostly because they cant be bothered to do research on how to play their class an/or dungeons/raids


Most players do look up how to play their class

But in general, players want to learn by playing the game. Nobody wants to spend hours reading guides, or watching videos of other people playing just to enter a dungeon. Good players need minimal prep because they understand the fundamentals of the game, and their class.

Better yet, other people in the party can convey important stuff before you even begin the dungeon, or inform people while in the dungeon. Good players will handle this just fine. Even if it's there first time there at any particular level.

Many players are in different stages of learning the game. IT's okay to be a mentor and help people who are under performing, rather than being an !@# to them.
well, its like having a certificate or deploma. this job is qualify for certain level and if you have a grad school degree ( certain raider io points), it could filter out majority of those whos not capable.
for those who hate it, then quit tryna solo or lfr this friggin MMO rpg game. you gotta find friends and stuff. social
and community is a big part of it but somehow nowadays people dont even know what they are playing.

In Legion my main was an enhancement shaman. no way I can get any mythic group in lfg. All I have is a great guild and a bunch of good friend that I have never met in person. they carried me a lot.

And in this game making friend is so darn easy. just get on discord and BS a whole lot and ervvbody laugh.

And for higher mytic+, 13 14+ as for now, I dont even think about lfg since there's alot of them with high raider io score but are actually garbage players. those who with high dps but had no idea how to do utility.
I only trust my friends, I mean those who are mythic+ pro friends.
I appreciate all your input. As a new player in BFA the sheer amount of supplementary information I had to digest to learn my role/class for mythic+ was astonishing:

1. Healer PVE guides-->Icy veins. Strategy varies.
2. Do azerite traits stack? varies. Check wowhead.
3. What are azerite trait proc rates? varies. Check wowhead.
4. What azerite traits are high performers? varies. Sim yourself, wtf?
5. Dungeon mechanics, watch a fatboss video. Otherwise healing is pure hell :(
6. Weakauras and DBM should be mandatory. Its way too useful to be addons.
7. How do warfronts work? Read another 2500 word article on wowhead.
8. Can you target azerite gear? varies. But usually no.

I only did all of these because guildies make me aware. Instead of integrating all of this information to the solo leveling experience, Blizzard relies on people spending the time to research all of this. For the love of god I turned level 113, 115, 117 and 119 without any new unlocked content or new spells/abilities. How boring is that? What a missed opportunity on Blizzard's part.
11/13/2018 07:44 AMPosted by Fôurth
Listing ideas to fix this entrenched issue would be useless because Blizzard wont do anything anyways.


The method to fix this -- to learn as you go -- is fully within the grasp of the players. They simply need to take their +2 key, and start grouping and pushing it upwards until they hit the ceiling. As they do that, they will be learning each new dungeon at the level that's appropriate to them.

The problem seems to be, at least from reading the forums, is that people are chasing loot. And when you chase loot, you chase upgrades. (Not you specifically, the overall "you".) This causes these inexperienced players to deem lower level m+ to be "unworthy" and want only to be in the higher level keys.

There, inexperience clashes with ambition. Ambitious "pushing" players do not want "one and done" players in their groups because the ultimate goals are incompatible.

As long as the reward is more important than the journey, we'll have these issues. Not sure how Blizzard can fix this unless they bump up the loot levels in m+ or bump down the loot levels in overworld and "easy" content, which will cause a firestorm of anger.

Blizzard opened the Pandora's box with the loot raining from the sky. I'm not sure this can be easily resolved.
11/13/2018 07:44 AMPosted by Fôurth
Listing ideas to fix this entrenched issue would be useless because Blizzard wont do anything anyways.


The problem seems to be, at least from reading the forums, is that people are chasing loot. This causes these inexperienced players to deem lower level m+ to be "unworthy" and want only to be in the higher level keys.


I agree with this part. Players should be chasing an in-game metric that accurately describes their exposure+competence.

For example, make every dungeon have its own faction. For an Underrot faction have quests that allow players to be rewarded for interrupting death bolt a certain# of times. Or curing diseases, if you are a ret paladin. Show monk players that they can un-root themselves using transcendance transfer and avoid the matron attacks. Quest reward can be related, give a 0.5sec CD decrease to interrupt/utility abilitiy (in Underrot only) and a rep reward. Give players boss specific achievements for avoiding avoidable damage (as a healer I'd love this). Then novices need to actually look up boss abilities to avoid them.

Players can track their progress, dungeon or even boss specific. Make emissary quests (same difficultly) but in the dungeons itself, encourage players to explore tank/healer quests so ppl are not feeling delayed in their progress by trying other specs, learn mechanics/positioning without scrambling in 5 man groups to get it right.

Remember in classic how dungeons were vast and discoverable? <--- Use this concept and make the "main highway" the mythic+ routes (keep mythic+ the same because it is fun) and "side routes" for quests in class/role advancements, profession or emissary quests. Use dungeons to expand the lore and introduce stories with future raid bosses, so there the "world" feels alive. This is what I mean by BFA dungeons being "uninspiring".

Good players will automatically have high scores simply by completing the dungeon. Their achievement points will rise automatically because they were competent to begin with.

Novice players need to pay attention how to raise rep in order to show dungeon competence. Then raider IO wont be necessary and players have in-game knowledge of their relative performance compared to others.
@OP some great ideas on your recent post.

Raider.io actually only provides information for players to see the experience that other player has in dungeons as a tool that the group leader can use to decide if he wants to invite him or not (for which the group leader is the only one entitled to make that decision).

I would love for Blizzard to implement the same functionality themselves (or at least expose full data of all runs so no-body is left out). Still the main complain I see about raider.io is from players who can't get into groups and blame the site/addon for that, it would be the exact same situation if Blizzard implemented the tool themselves.

In general when someone wants to get rid of tools that people use to get information, not only in wow or games but really for anything in life, is because they are trying to trick others into making uninformed decisions to their advantage.
11/13/2018 06:17 PMPosted by Holymonky
In general when someone wants to get rid of tools that people use to get information, not only in wow or games but really for anything in life, is because they are trying to trick others into making uninformed decisions to their advantage.


This is sad but true.

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