Horde and Alliance Bias

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This thread is not meant to stir up any controversy but just my opinion on the whole Horde and Alliance bias within Blizzard community.

You have Horde calling Blizzard Alliance bias while the Alliance call Blizzard Horde bias.

Especially in Bfa and despite the fact Bfa so far have the strongest story and narrative out of any expansion, Blizzard failed to rally Alliance and Horde behind their faction. As of current state, majority of Horde players dislike sylvanas action while majority of alliance player hated being punching bag.

There is nothing wrong with evil Horde as a faction as long as Blizzard done it right or alliance good as long as Blizzard done it right.

However Blizzard does not.
Not only this is the second time Blizzard show Horde being evil, the way they portrayed Horde leaders beside Saurfang are just horrible. Baine lack pretty much a spine while Lorthermar just suck sylvanas @@****@!. Only saurfang willing to do something and even he just sit depressed in prison.

And since the Horde is evil, Blizzard has to make them a credible threat but they did at the expense of the alliance. You dont need to be a die hard alliance fan to see that the Alliance as a faction has been driven into a corner with two of their races are now near extinction while the alliance keep losing ground and look incompetent.

Fast forward to 8.1, it supposed to be Blizzard answer to the fan of alliance done something morally wrong while at the same time beat the Horde right?

No not really. Alliance siege Zuldazar but not capturing it because it is the Horde main hub for the expansion. They kill one character who was going to die anyway and they still being led by a leader who refuse to push his advantage because he does not want to be like sylvanas. (God I miss Varian) oh remember Ashvane? The fat !@#$% who siege Boralus and side with pirate? The Horde rescue her. Another example of alliance incompetency. Let not kill a woman who ^-*!ing siege our city and committed treason because why not? Katherine was ready to hanged her daughter for not helping Daelin. What Ashvane did would be enough for a full blown execution.

And on the Horde? Well it is pretty much mop 2.0. Sylvanas want to get rid of Saurfang. She tempered with Derek and night elf ranger which make Horde players base question their moral. Suarfang heading for a rebellion which will tear the Horde apart.

Blizzard has written themselves into a corner with the ending of this expansion because no matter what they do, one side or both will get mad.

Even if the alliance win, Horde get mad for using same storyline. Horde win, Alliance get mad for not getting victory they deserved.

It is the same problem with Mop where the Horde players call Blizzard alliance bias because alliance get to raid Horde capitol and depose their warchief while the alliance call Blizzard Horde bias because the Horde still owned Azshara, Gilneas and the majority of Eastern Kingdom while all alliance ever did was razed one @#$%ing tauren camp.

In the end, what we have here is that Blizzard create a narrative that meant to rally player to their faction but manage to rally no one.
10/17/2018 10:52 PMPosted by Worgendk
This thread is not meant to stir up any controversy
Oh boy, well buckle up then.
Even if the alliance win, Horde get mad for using same storyline. Horde win, Alliance get mad for not getting victory they deserved.


But DO they though...?
A big problem, in my opinion, is that many players want something fairly simple: They want expansion and growth for the things they care about. Put even more simply, they want things for their group. Now it may be a matter of personal preference if that group is the Alliance and Horde, a single race, or even a single character, but most players want, story-wise, some sort of arc or advancement for the things they care about.

The problem is that BFA has largely been a story of inflicting losses. In story we have known about the existence of the Zandlari empire, and of Kul Tiras for years. Players knew about characters like Rastakhan for years, and many players who's group includes "Trolls" have long held him as the hopeful Troll hero character who will one day bring development to the Trolls / Zandalari. Likewise WC II Alliance groups have long wanted Kul Tiras to rejoin the Alliance, and bring to bear their marital traditions, hatred of the Horde, and powerful navy to bear. Certain players cared about Tedrassil and Undercity, and they cared about the characters we are losing and this rubs them the wrong way.

On the other side, when one is dedicated to following a certain group then losses inflicted to a group you are interested often don't bring you much excitement. A person can be momentarily happy that a group they actively dislike is losing something, but it rarely brings long term enjoyment. On the contrary, losing something in your own group often brings long term unhappiness, especially if it was something you valued.

What this ends up causing is some of the people who actively dislike certain groups may get a moment of enjoyment when something is taken away from those disliked groups, but that enjoyment is almost always offset by the unhappiness of those fans of said group. With certain exceptions of groups who are more or less set up to fail (the actual scourge, the burning legion, the Old Gods) then taking away something from a fan of a group is almost always a net negative, and you would have to do quite a lot to make those fans happy.

WoW's story is ultimately, beholden to different standards than other stories and movies are. This isn't to say that more or less is expected of it, but instead that the way to craft an enjoyable narrative is different. In MMO games players will attach to almost any group that they can identify with, and most players will identify with any playable faction within a game. Over such a long time frame (10+ years for many) these attachments become far more entrenched and established. This is, more or less, human nature of the players to form communities around similar likes.

This is what has ultimately made BFA such a failure. You have all these communities of fans of different groups (Horde, Alliance, Night Elf, Forsaken, etc) who are now losing the stuff they care about, while often getting nothing to make them feel cool instead.
A big problem, in my opinion, is that many players want something fairly simple: They want expansion and growth for the things they care about. Put even more simply, they want things for their group. Now it may be a matter of personal preference if that group is the Alliance and Horde, a single race, or even a single character, but most players want, story-wise, some sort of arc or advancement for the things they care about.

The problem is that BFA has largely been a story of inflicting losses. In story we have known about the existence of the Zandlari empire, and of Kul Tiras for years. Players knew about characters like Rastakhan for years, and many players who's group includes "Trolls" have long held him as the hopeful Troll hero character who will one day bring development to the Trolls / Zandalari. Likewise WC II Alliance groups have long wanted Kul Tiras to rejoin the Alliance, and bring to bear their marital traditions, hatred of the Horde, and powerful navy to bear. Certain players cared about Tedrassil and Undercity, and they cared about the characters we are losing and this rubs them the wrong way.

On the other side, when one is dedicated to following a certain group then losses inflicted to a group you are interested often don't bring you much excitement. A person can be momentarily happy that a group they actively dislike is losing something, but it rarely brings long term enjoyment. On the contrary, losing something in your own group often brings long term unhappiness, especially if it was something you valued.

What this ends up causing is some of the people who actively dislike certain groups may get a moment of enjoyment when something is taken away from those disliked groups, but that enjoyment is almost always offset by the unhappiness of those fans of said group. With certain exceptions of groups who are more or less set up to fail (the actual scourge, the burning legion, the Old Gods) then taking away something from a fan of a group is almost always a net negative, and you would have to do quite a lot to make those fans happy.

WoW's story is ultimately, beholden to different standards than other stories and movies are. This isn't to say that more or less is expected of it, but instead that the way to craft an enjoyable narrative is different. In MMO games players will attach to almost any group that they can identify with, and most players will identify with any playable faction within a game. Over such a long time frame (10+ years for many) these attachments become far more entrenched and established. This is, more or less, human nature of the players to form communities around similar likes.

This is what has ultimately made BFA such a failure. You have all these communities of fans of different groups (Horde, Alliance, Night Elf, Forsaken, etc) who are now losing the stuff they care about, while often getting nothing to make them feel cool instead
.


Yep this perfectly encapsulates my issues with the faction war.
10/17/2018 11:12 PMPosted by Korzuk
This is what has ultimately made BFA such a failure. You have all these communities of fans of different groups (Horde, Alliance, Night Elf, Forsaken, etc) who are now losing the stuff they care about, while often getting nothing to make them feel cool instead.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JW68goC4_es

Someone please flood Blizzard HQ with printed versions of this comment.
The constant stream of losses on both sides is going to drain people very quickly - and it's even more strange when Blizzard claims them as wins or a time for 'this group to shine.' Teldrassil counts as a 'win' yet many players (save for a few Nelf haters) felt like it was a loss of identity of the Horde's honor and ignoring the other nature-revering druids and shamans.

Nelf players lost their home, and now have their goddess give them a new pair of eyes yet they still don't get revenge against Sylvanas in a meaningful way. Sure they kill a Val'kyir, but does it break Sylvanas? Does it send her into despair? Knowing her she'd just be, "It was a minor set back." And then go along to burn down some more villages without stopping.

But it's hard to clarify what counts as a win. Even in the Dazar'alor raid some Alliance count it as a loss because they kill some king that was obviously going to die before he even thought to make that deal with Bwonsamdi, and they get chased out. But to the Horde it's an obvious Alliance victory since they killed the king and blew up some boats and it's a central raid we all focus on.

In the end, I'm afraid no matter the outcome, someone is going to feel disappointed because Blizzard gives us conflicting messages on what the Horde and Alliance are meant to stand for.
It's simple.

Gameplay is biased towards Horde.
Story is biased towards humans.
The moment you bring faction war into the mix, it becomes a team sport, and one that is attached to something largely out of the control of people actually participating in it. Everything becomes coloured by player bias, in terms of interpretation, and that's why there's a start difference than when both are working parallel, not together, mind you, to each other against an NPC threat.

There's no competition against an NPC threat, they're an obstacle, and losing things to them feels more like a story than actually losing. When a character from a faction opposite to yours does something badass against an NPC foe, it's a cool moment regardless. When they do it against your faction, it's unfair and biased.

What we're seeing in BfA with various characters is what we should have had in Legion. An all hands on deck battle for the fate of the universe with all these big characters having awesome moments. Imagine if Nathanos' snark and edginess were pitted against the Legion in the way it's been used in BfA. Imagine Jaina's big entrance in the Siege of Lordaeron, but instead she swoops in to go clear the skies so Dalaran can port to the Isles.

Why was Saurfang so loved for all these years? Because he was a cool Horde character who always had those epic moments against non-faction threats. In Wrath, Sylvanas was almost universally loved, and Varian disliked, because one was focused on the Scourge as a threat, and the other was always chomping at the bit to get at the Horde.

You can even see this with what's happened with each faction so far. For years, there were threads of "I want an enemy that feels like a threat" and "I want to actually lose" in the forums. Well, we got that, but the problem is that the faction war makes it impossible for any retaliation that could be satisfying. We can see this in 8.1, already, with the fallout from Teldrassil, as has been discussed throughout the forum already. Imagine if all the stuff done thus far had been done by a universal threat, not Horde/Alliance. People would be gleeful to back up all these characters, and Blizzard would be free to write all sorts of things without fear of being seen as biased.

TL;DR: Faction war story makes players cranky.
10/17/2018 11:12 PMPosted by Korzuk
A big problem, in my opinion, is that many players want something fairly simple: They want expansion and growth for the things they care about. Put even more simply, they want things for their group. Now it may be a matter of personal preference if that group is the Alliance and Horde, a single race, or even a single character, but most players want, story-wise, some sort of arc or advancement for the things they care about.

The problem is that BFA has largely been a story of inflicting losses. In story we have known about the existence of the Zandlari empire, and of Kul Tiras for years. Players knew about characters like Rastakhan for years, and many players who's group includes "Trolls" have long held him as the hopeful Troll hero character who will one day bring development to the Trolls / Zandalari. Likewise WC II Alliance groups have long wanted Kul Tiras to rejoin the Alliance, and bring to bear their marital traditions, hatred of the Horde, and powerful navy to bear. Certain players cared about Tedrassil and Undercity, and they cared about the characters we are losing and this rubs them the wrong way.

On the other side, when one is dedicated to following a certain group then losses inflicted to a group you are interested often don't bring you much excitement. A person can be momentarily happy that a group they actively dislike is losing something, but it rarely brings long term enjoyment. On the contrary, losing something in your own group often brings long term unhappiness, especially if it was something you valued.

What this ends up causing is some of the people who actively dislike certain groups may get a moment of enjoyment when something is taken away from those disliked groups, but that enjoyment is almost always offset by the unhappiness of those fans of said group. With certain exceptions of groups who are more or less set up to fail (the actual scourge, the burning legion, the Old Gods) then taking away something from a fan of a group is almost always a net negative, and you would have to do quite a lot to make those fans happy.

WoW's story is ultimately, beholden to different standards than other stories and movies are. This isn't to say that more or less is expected of it, but instead that the way to craft an enjoyable narrative is different. In MMO games players will attach to almost any group that they can identify with, and most players will identify with any playable faction within a game. Over such a long time frame (10+ years for many) these attachments become far more entrenched and established. This is, more or less, human nature of the players to form communities around similar likes.

This is what has ultimately made BFA such a failure. You have all these communities of fans of different groups (Horde, Alliance, Night Elf, Forsaken, etc) who are now losing the stuff they care about, while often getting nothing to make them feel cool instead.


Sum up wow story here perfectly.
10/18/2018 12:50 AMPosted by Aureton
The moment you bring faction war into the mix, it becomes a team sport, and one that is attached to something largely out of the control of people actually participating in it. Everything becomes coloured by player bias, in terms of interpretation, and that's why there's a start difference than when both are working parallel, not together, mind you, to each other against an NPC threat.

There's no competition against an NPC threat, they're an obstacle, and losing things to them feels more like a story than actually losing. When a character from a faction opposite to yours does something badass against an NPC foe, it's a cool moment regardless. When they do it against your faction, it's unfair and biased.

What we're seeing in BfA with various characters is what we should have had in Legion. An all hands on deck battle for the fate of the universe with all these big characters having awesome moments. Imagine if Nathanos' snark and edginess were pitted against the Legion in the way it's been used in BfA. Imagine Jaina's big entrance in the Siege of Lordaeron, but instead she swoops in to go clear the skies so Dalaran can port to the Isles.

Why was Saurfang so loved for all these years? Because he was a cool Horde character who always had those epic moments against non-faction threats. In Wrath, Sylvanas was almost universally loved, and Varian disliked, because one was focused on the Scourge as a threat, and the other was always chomping at the bit to get at the Horde.

You can even see this with what's happened with each faction so far. For years, there were threads of "I want an enemy that feels like a threat" and "I want to actually lose" in the forums. Well, we got that, but the problem is that the faction war makes it impossible for any retaliation that could be satisfying. We can see this in 8.1, already, with the fallout from Teldrassil, as has been discussed throughout the forum already. Imagine if all the stuff done thus far had been done by a universal threat, not Horde/Alliance. People would be gleeful to back up all these characters, and Blizzard would be free to write all sorts of things without fear of being seen as biased.

TL;DR: Faction war story makes players cranky.


I remember when the Horde rally around Varian because he stop being a %@!#!%%% even though most of them does not even know Varian's progression and read the book like many people, including myself, did.
The only bias Blizzard has is towards bad writing, which partisan players interpret as a bias towards specific factions.

Rather than asking for better writing all around, people shout for worse writing for the other side.
10/18/2018 05:07 AMPosted by Tewdee
The only bias Blizzard has is towards bad writing, which partisan players interpret as a bias towards specific factions.

Rather than asking for better writing all around, people shout for worse writing for the other side.


I objected. This expansion has the strongest narrative out of any expansion. However the problem is that Blizzard is intentionally or unintentionally write the story in a way that both players of the isle are so deluded with their faction.

Horde is tired of being evil while the alliance craved for strong leadership. If anything, it is a good story blizzard is telling. However it is a story that just drain player more and more compare to other story.
10/18/2018 05:14 AMPosted by Worgendk
10/18/2018 05:07 AMPosted by Tewdee
The only bias Blizzard has is towards bad writing, which partisan players interpret as a bias towards specific factions.

Rather than asking for better writing all around, people shout for worse writing for the other side.


I objected. This expansion has the strongest narrative out of any expansion. However the problem is that Blizzard is intentionally or unintentionally write the story in a way that both players of the isle are so deluded with their faction.

Horde is tired of being evil while the alliance craved for strong leadership. If anything, it is a good story blizzard is telling. However it is a story that just drain player more and more compare to other story.


It's... not a good story. It has the bones of a good story, but they're put together all wrong, and covered in tumors. That's part of what makes this so frustrating: it COULD have been a good story. We can see the elements that, in the right order and the right tone, would have made for a great, engaging narrative. They're just implemented horribly wrong.

This story is an Abomination: bloated, misshappen, cobbled together from parts that worked individually, but only function in this configuration because of twisted magic, and to top it all off, it emits a nauseating stench with every movement.

The datamining isn't doing them any favors, mind you. This sequence of "messed up and concerning thing is datamined>Blizz says 'wait and see, it's not as bad as it looks'>thing goes live and is EXACTLY AS BAD AS IT LOOKED" is definitely making us angrier than if they didn't have a step where they lied to us.
10/18/2018 06:44 AMPosted by Kirango
10/18/2018 05:14 AMPosted by Worgendk
...

I objected. This expansion has the strongest narrative out of any expansion. However the problem is that Blizzard is intentionally or unintentionally write the story in a way that both players of the isle are so deluded with their faction.

Horde is tired of being evil while the alliance craved for strong leadership. If anything, it is a good story blizzard is telling. However it is a story that just drain player more and more compare to other story.


It's... not a good story. It has the bones of a good story, but they're put together all wrong, and covered in tumors. That's part of what makes this so frustrating: it COULD have been a good story. We can see the elements that, in the right order and the right tone, would have made for a great, engaging narrative. They're just implemented horribly wrong.

This story is an Abomination: bloated, misshappen, cobbled together from parts that worked individually, but only function in this configuration because of twisted magic, and to top it all off, it emits a nauseating stench with every movement.

The datamining isn't doing them any favors, mind you. This sequence of "messed up and concerning thing is datamined>Blizz says 'wait and see, it's not as bad as it looks'>thing goes live and is EXACTLY AS BAD AS IT LOOKED" is definitely making us angrier than if they didn't have a step where they lied to us.


Well I believed just because it is not the story you want does not mean it is bad. Blizzard deliver this perfectly. However they indeed should not do the whole mystery route and the morally grey meme certainly didnt help them.

It hard to say this is bad writing because in term of the writing itself it is not really bad. The plot make sense, the character is dynamic as ever, the story got people engaged. I know a lot of Horde players does not want to be the bad guy but if we take out our own personal preference toward our faction, i can hardly see how this is a bad story
10/18/2018 07:11 AMPosted by Worgendk
10/18/2018 06:44 AMPosted by Kirango
...

It's... not a good story. It has the bones of a good story, but they're put together all wrong, and covered in tumors. That's part of what makes this so frustrating: it COULD have been a good story. We can see the elements that, in the right order and the right tone, would have made for a great, engaging narrative. They're just implemented horribly wrong.

This story is an Abomination: bloated, misshappen, cobbled together from parts that worked individually, but only function in this configuration because of twisted magic, and to top it all off, it emits a nauseating stench with every movement.

The datamining isn't doing them any favors, mind you. This sequence of "messed up and concerning thing is datamined>Blizz says 'wait and see, it's not as bad as it looks'>thing goes live and is EXACTLY AS BAD AS IT LOOKED" is definitely making us angrier than if they didn't have a step where they lied to us.


Well I believed just because it is not the story you want does not mean it is bad. Blizzard deliver this perfectly. However they indeed should not do the whole mystery route and the morally grey meme certainly didnt help them.

It hard to say this is bad writing because in term of the writing itself it is not really bad. The plot make sense, the character is dynamic as ever, the story got people engaged. I know a lot of Horde players does not want to be the bad guy but if we take out our own personal preference toward our faction, i can hardly see how this is a bad story


It's not a matter of faction preference. it is bad writing to have the characters we are meant to identify with, i.e. the protagonists, embark on a string of morally reprehensible acts with flimsy justification at the outset of the narrative.

I mean, Horde and Nelf players in general are mostly hanging on out of a combination of bile fascination and spite. Both are getting crapped on hard. The Kaldorei can't win a single engagement onscreen in their own territory and the Horde go from villainbatted in the faction conflict to Zandalar where they fail at everything. We don't ruin Zandalar by our own actions, but we certainly fail to save it; every zone is materially worse off at the end of our story than the beginning.

Furthermore, as I said above, all of the events are out of order, and make less sense because of it. This contributes not only to the Horde's lack of motivation, but also the Alliance's lack of agency and coherence.
Undercity made more sense as an inciting incident; Greymane's grudge against Sylvanas and the Forsaken already enjoyed a great deal of popular support. Taking back Lordaeron has been a rallying cry blueside for years, and targeting the biggest threat to a resurgent Gilneas just made sense.
Teldrassil made more sense as retaliation- Sylvanas would rightfully place the blame for the seige of Lordaeron at Greymane's feet, and would seek to secure leverage against him... say, his wife, who happens to live in Darnassus? She's still being cruel and calculating, but at least it's a legitimate target.

A better Zuldazar storyline would have had the Horde heroes, Zandalari loyalists, and all of the loa we'd recruited throughout the zones narrowly succeed at repelling Mythrax the C'thrax, preserving the final seal(and granting the horde an actual success somewhere in their story that wasn't engineered to shame them as well)... until the Alliance attack(first raid!) cracks it with gnomium explosives or whatever. Now the Alliance actually has a reason to go to Uldir(second raid!): Anduin would INSIST on cleaning up the mess they made; just because the first victims would be their enemies doesn't mean that an uncontained Ghuun isn't a global threat.

And that's not even touching the Bronze Headache that is the War Campaigns.
HORDE BIAS:
-Horde "wins" fights
-Arguably often has better racials
-Gets unique looking gear/mounts

ALLIANCE BIAS:
-The story is from the Alliance POV
-Alliance can do no wrong and the Horde are the badguys
-Horde quests are often half baked copy/paste Alliance quests
10/18/2018 08:22 AMPosted by Hahahahahaha
HORDE BIAS:
-Horde "wins" fights
-Arguably often has better racials
-Gets unique looking gear/mounts

ALLIANCE BIAS:
-The story is from the Alliance POV
-Alliance can do no wrong and the Horde are the badguys
-Horde quests are often half baked copy/paste Alliance quests


I admit, it's pretty hinky that they nerfed Arcane Torrent, then created a bunch of mechanics that specifically favor the new version of the racial.

Bosses with dispellabe/stealable buffs? Cool, flavorful chances for shamans and mages to shine, along with DH.

Packs of mobs that are AGONY to deal with unless you have a mass dispel, in which case they are trivial? Suspicious.
To put it simply we have an Alliance that FEELS like the Alliance, but is constantly LOSING.

And we have a Horde that DOESNT FEEL like the Horde but is constantly WINNING.

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