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10/24/2018 02:11 PMPosted by Treng
Baultenn posted a thread wherein it describes the Forsaken using the mushroom sporefolk in Drustvar to animate dead orcs and use them as weapons. Is that not betrayal?


Not really, I'd say.

This doesn't really seem to be actual magical necromancy with soul stuff based on what the information you provided. This is much more science-based stuff from what I'm seeing, where Blizz is basically taking the trope of mushrooms that take control of host bodies like that one that uses wasps as a breeding ground.

Some orcs might have a problem with it, but other's might not. And having a problem with something doesn't automatically make that something a betrayal. It doesn't actively work against the Orcs or the Horde as a whole from what I can tell, it's just making use of everything available to fight the Alliance.
We're talking about defiling an ally's (read: not alliance) corpse to weaponize it. I don't know if Necromancy is not involved. Even if it isn't, it's turning orcs into beasts that, on Draenor, they said they would rather die than become.

I will point out that the plant zombie has death knight eyes, which are pretty commonly used by undead.
But they were already dead, no?

So assuming that; they haven't really enslaved the Orc himself as a mushroom monster, the fungi is just mobilizing the material remains of the corpse.

Idk, but that's enough of a difference for me.
10/24/2018 02:32 PMPosted by Cailias
But they were already dead, no?
That's what I'm led to believe.

10/24/2018 02:32 PMPosted by Cailias
So assuming that; they haven't really enslaved the Orc himself as a mushroom monster, the fungi is just mobilizing the material remains of the corpse.
Assuming that the orc is not undead -- which the eyes imply is not true -- orcs still practice ancestor worship. The use of their bodies like that is sacrilege.

Also the idea that just because they're dead, they become the Forsaken's property is insane.
10/24/2018 02:20 PMPosted by Treng
We know orcs would rather die than become Botani. That's where Victory or Death comes from.


True, I'd still probably put it as disrespectful of an allies wishes (Again, on the assumption that the spore raising is just a meat puppet of some form)
10/24/2018 02:35 PMPosted by Treng
Also the idea that just because they're dead, they become the Forsaken's property is insane


I never said that they were property.

Just that it isn't a betrayal.

A point of contention? Sure.

Not a flat out betrayal.
10/24/2018 02:45 PMPosted by Cailias
10/24/2018 02:35 PMPosted by Treng
Also the idea that just because they're dead, they become the Forsaken's property is insane


I never said that they were property.

Just that it isn't a betrayal.

A point of contention? Sure.

Not a flat out betrayal.
Kidnapping your ally's dead body, subjecting it to something which animates it -- with necromancy or not -- is theft at the absolute barest minimum.

I don't know anyone who thinks theft isn't betrayal.
Don't worry lads

blizzard will favor the idiot sylvanas NPC's, and the classic horde bulls by ripping off Elder scrolls and state that a "dragon Break happened" thanks to Chromie and the Infinite Dragonflight medling with BfA timeline

now where is Merhunes Dagon when you need him to planemeld Azeroth into his sphere of influence?
10/24/2018 07:03 AMPosted by Darethy
10/24/2018 06:50 AMPosted by Pellex
...
You're more optimistic than I am about that. When you say "I will not betray my warchief," the answer is probably "Are you morally bankrupt or something? She's clearly evil! How can you not want to join my noble friend Saurfang here?"


In an ideal world my response will be something along the lines of:

Because Saurfang is my ancient enemy. He's the exact reason i'm in my current state of decay, he's why we're rejected by our families and we were forced into his arms. For a decade now we've had to hear him rant about honor while the 'honorless' made the hard choices to defend my people and my kingdom from outside aggressors. I'v seen his people put my city under martial law for YEARS in response to extremists bred by his and humanities hateful perception of our race, making us in an even worse spot then before.

I'v had to watch his people put a gun to my head, marching us into a war with an enemy we hated, but an enemy we didn't want to fight, at least not fight yet. I'v seen them kneecap my capacity to wage this war they forced me into, i'v seen them send us ships full of blithering drunks to support our line. Orcs so smashed out of their heads that we had to drag them from broken siege weapons out of the forest.

Where was Saurfang in Hellscreams Horde? Where was Etrigg? Where was Drek'thar? Oh I know where Drek'thar was, he was sitting in his wheelchair and leaving us to rot. Even though time and again we've sent soldiers to defend his precious mountain home. And why? why you ask? because of the Blight, because of the weapons we developed to defend ourselves when everyone and their mother wanted our heads. Years later, in the invasion of the Legion, the blood feud we incurred under Hellscream would result in a random attack out of nowhere that not only deprived us of our ability to help save the world, but also robbed us of our future. However disgusting YOU might think the methods for securing that future was, it was all we had, we did what everyone else in the Horde banded together to do: survive.

And you abandoned us.

Do you know who was there? Windrunner, always and forever. On every battlefield, every fight we ever had, the Dark Lady is there. Her selfishness never stopped her from standing beside us on the frontlines, she's practically ever present in every battle we've ever been in. She may be deteriorating, becoming paranoid, violent, genocidal even, but what she's done is a Sunday school picnic compared to what ALL OF YOU have.

.......

At least, that's what I wish I could say.


Dragging this up from a former page to agree heavily. I worry they are framing Sylvanas loyalists as fanatics, and not people who have good reasons to trust her over the alternatives.
10/24/2018 02:55 PMPosted by Yersynia
10/24/2018 07:03 AMPosted by Darethy
...

In an ideal world my response will be something along the lines of:

Because Saurfang is my ancient enemy. He's the exact reason i'm in my current state of decay, he's why we're rejected by our families and we were forced into his arms. For a decade now we've had to hear him rant about honor while the 'honorless' made the hard choices to defend my people and my kingdom from outside aggressors. I'v seen his people put my city under martial law for YEARS in response to extremists bred by his and humanities hateful perception of our race, making us in an even worse spot then before.

I'v had to watch his people put a gun to my head, marching us into a war with an enemy we hated, but an enemy we didn't want to fight, at least not fight yet. I'v seen them kneecap my capacity to wage this war they forced me into, i'v seen them send us ships full of blithering drunks to support our line. Orcs so smashed out of their heads that we had to drag them from broken siege weapons out of the forest.

Where was Saurfang in Hellscreams Horde? Where was Etrigg? Where was Drek'thar? Oh I know where Drek'thar was, he was sitting in his wheelchair and leaving us to rot. Even though time and again we've sent soldiers to defend his precious mountain home. And why? why you ask? because of the Blight, because of the weapons we developed to defend ourselves when everyone and their mother wanted our heads. Years later, in the invasion of the Legion, the blood feud we incurred under Hellscream would result in a random attack out of nowhere that not only deprived us of our ability to help save the world, but also robbed us of our future. However disgusting YOU might think the methods for securing that future was, it was all we had, we did what everyone else in the Horde banded together to do: survive.

And you abandoned us.

Do you know who was there? Windrunner, always and forever. On every battlefield, every fight we ever had, the Dark Lady is there. Her selfishness never stopped her from standing beside us on the frontlines, she's practically ever present in every battle we've ever been in. She may be deteriorating, becoming paranoid, violent, genocidal even, but what she's done is a Sunday school picnic compared to what ALL OF YOU have.

.......

At least, that's what I wish I could say.


Dragging this up from a former page to agree heavily. I worry they are framing Sylvanas loyalists as fanatics, and not people who have good reasons to trust her over the alternatives.


i hope they do this so they can furk off and go back to tumblr or whatever the fanboy NPC hole they came from, blizzard keeps listening to this kind of people eversince the dawn of this game, and look what happened...

they are borderline hive minded cultists at this rate.
What the Forsaken fundamentally misunderstand is that death means something other than fresh parts to their Horde allies, and their glib continuation of defiling the fallen for plans that end ultimately in failure is not boding well.
Using the NPC meme makes you look more like a NPC than the people you're flailing around to try and insult lol
10/24/2018 03:05 PMPosted by Cailias
Using the NPC meme makes you look more like a NPC than the people you're flailing around to try and insult lol
Putting lol at the end of your post immediately destroys most of its credibility. End sentences with punctuation you fiend.
10/24/2018 03:05 PMPosted by Cailias
Using the NPC meme makes you look more like a NPC than the people you're flailing around to try and insult lol

well i dont care for you and your cultist edgy !@#$

you all act like spoiled kids in the playground asking for daddy blizz for sheit with strawberry frekles on the top to make it ymmy
10/24/2018 02:18 PMPosted by Fergus
why the hell would a valkyr sacrifice herself for nathanos?
Because Sylvanas would command her to, because Nathanos is her boytoy? Duh.
Dragging this up from a former page to agree heavily. I worry they are framing Sylvanas loyalists as fanatics, and not people who have good reasons to trust her over the alternatives.


> Darethy

> Not fanatical towards his virtual nationality

Pick one :P
10/24/2018 03:15 PMPosted by Diomades
10/24/2018 03:05 PMPosted by Cailias
Using the NPC meme makes you look more like a NPC than the people you're flailing around to try and insult lol

well i dont care for you and your cultist edgy !@#$

you all act like spoiled kids in the playground asking for daddy blizz for sheit with strawberry frekles on the top to make it ymmy


Please, cry more about it.
10/24/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Sulai
10/24/2018 02:18 PMPosted by Fergus
why the hell would a valkyr sacrifice herself for nathanos?
Because Sylvanas would command her to, because Nathanos is her boytoy? Duh.
No no no, that would color Sylvanas as something other than pragmatic and tactical. She's not emotional, SHE'S NEVER EMOTIONAL. SHUT UP DELARYN.
10/24/2018 02:49 PMPosted by Treng
Kidnapping your ally's dead body


On a side note, it would be interesting to see what the orcish view on corpses is; do they belong to the orc's particular clan or the Horde as a whole.
Originally this sort of distinction wouldn't have largely mattered, but with undead as a member it could mean quite a lot.
It could make an interesting twist to the Blood Oath's
'From now until the end of days, I live and die for the horde'
There is no kidnapping.

A corpse can't be kidnapped. It's not a person.

It's just an object at that point. Just lying there.

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