Quit nerfing disc

Priest
There are like 50 huge nerfs on the ptr lined up for disc already. There is absolutely nothing for us to look forward to. I see 2 extremely crappy azerite traits.

waiting for 8.1 is like sitting on death row
10/24/2018 06:10 AMPosted by Healyelflol
There are like 50 huge nerfs on the ptr lined up for disc already. There is absolutely nothing for us to look forward to. I see 2 extremely crappy azerite traits.

waiting for 8.1 is like sitting on death row
QFT

I agree. If you're a 1% top level mythic raider, you understand these nerfs. The other 99% raiding in Normal and Heroic are scratching their heads wondering why the middle of the pack healer is going to be nerfed under shaman, to the point where they're almost unviable.
10/24/2018 06:15 AMPosted by Superdon
10/24/2018 06:10 AMPosted by Healyelflol
There are like 50 huge nerfs on the ptr lined up for disc already. There is absolutely nothing for us to look forward to. I see 2 extremely crappy azerite traits.

waiting for 8.1 is like sitting on death row
QFT

I agree. If you're a 1% top level mythic raider, you understand these nerfs. The other 99% raiding in Normal and Heroic are scratching their heads wondering why the middle of the pack healer is going to be nerfed under shaman, to the point where they're almost unviable.


Disc will be fine in raids.
10/24/2018 06:15 AMPosted by Superdon

I agree. If you're a 1% top level mythic raider, you understand these nerfs. The other 99% raiding in Normal and Heroic are scratching their heads wondering why the middle of the pack healer is going to be nerfed under shaman, to the point where they're almost unviable.


Lol. One boss on heroic doesn't really qualify you as a heroic raider.
10/24/2018 06:15 AMPosted by Superdon
I agree. If you're a 1% top level mythic raider, you understand these nerfs. The other 99% raiding in Normal and Heroic are scratching their heads wondering why the middle of the pack healer is going to be nerfed under shaman, to the point where they're almost unviable.


What's your suggestion then? if disc is so obviously overpowered in mythic raiding and average in Heroic/Normal, how do you fix it?
10/24/2018 06:10 AMPosted by Healyelflol
There are like 50 huge nerfs on the ptr lined up for disc already.
They equate to maybe 8% or so of a throughput nerf. Given we were that much or more ahead of other healers, we're going to still be better or at least balanced with other healers.

10/24/2018 06:10 AMPosted by Healyelflol
I see 2 extremely crappy azerite traits.
Depth of Shadows changes aren't crappy, neither is the new Holy Nova trait. Both will impact our gameplay quite a bit and probably for the better (providing us with more choices, more dynamic gameplay).

10/24/2018 07:03 AMPosted by Suplaj
10/24/2018 06:15 AMPosted by Superdon
I agree. If you're a 1% top level mythic raider, you understand these nerfs. The other 99% raiding in Normal and Heroic are scratching their heads wondering why the middle of the pack healer is going to be nerfed under shaman, to the point where they're almost unviable.


What's your suggestion then? if disc is so obviously overpowered in mythic raiding and average in Heroic/Normal, how do you fix it?
Normal / Heroic will actually have better results in 8.1 with the mana change to PW:S. You'll be using Shadow Mend more as an Atonement applicator meaning you get more up-front healing and with the new Depth of Shadows trait, you'll get 4 more seconds of Atonement. The up front healing will mean that you're not trying to apply Atonement in low damage content (Normal/Heroic) to just have someone else top off the player first, or overhealing for most of the duration of Atonement.

Effectively the change to more Shadow Mend will actually make Discipline feel a bit better in easier content, while providing us with more choices at the higher end of play in Mythic content. The issue today is that we're so dependent on Atonement healing that in Normal and Heroic raids where damage is lower, raids can be larger and PUG's are using 1-2 healers extra than what they need, you end up overhealing a ton.

TLDR: The gameplay changes will supplement our Atonement healing via direct Shadow Mend healing. We'll likely perform better in easier content because of this change.
Disc threads are just the greatest.
I really don't see how we're going to start Shadow Mending a bunch in normal / heroic. The thing that stopped us before was mana, and it's as expensive as it ever was. Being closer to Shield doesn't make it cheaper. I barely have mana to spare as is, unless I get a Wisdom.

P.S. Healyelflol, didn't you write a post a month ago about how you were letting your subscription run out? Why didn't you?
They might be using SM a lot already for those lower content difficulties though. If there were a way to map play styles between different content levels, it might show that a lot of lower end players might be spamming SM more anyway for a variety of reasons (lack of experience, more unexpected damage with pugs or inexperienced members, or maybe just being in low-number raid group where they have to tank heal more). A SM trait would be giving some oomph to that.
Honestly, I am not concerned about the changes. Considering how easy it is for me to surpass other healers in most of the Heroic fights, I'll take the cut happily. As much as it's always guilty fun being the OP healer (WoD Disc I am looking at you ;)), I'd be thrilled to see some real balance between the healer specs. I like to top the HPS meters because I am good at what I do, not because of the spec I play :)

In the meantime, I'll be sipping my coffee, musing at all the Chicken Little cries through the forum, knowing that as years of playing this game has taught me, it's pretty much always unwarranted hyperbole.

~Lil
After evaluating some of my own logs I'm not really concerned about the throughput changes affecting Raiding too badly and looking at Mythic Raiding parses in general I agree they are justified. I think those will affect us a bit more in M+ (will elaborate on this latter).

I don't agree with the mana increase to pw:shield though and I think that change will have a negative impact for us in all content and even harder for the more casual players that are not trying to min-max all the time and evaluating their logs to see where they could have saved mana, I don't think that buffing one azerite trait that promotes more usage of one of the spells we normally try to avoid will solve this (specially since we avoid it because it's mana expensive not because it's that bad), and its an Azerite trait which you may not even have.

The Evangelism nerf I think it makes sense too because that's a change targeted towards one of the things that makes Disc so strong in Mythic Raiding. While on lower difficulties I've seen quite a bit of Luminous Barrier, which makes sense since it's easier to get value out of it and also scales well for larger groups. Lum Barrier still replaces pw:barrier so I really doubt that would ever become the go-to choice for high end raiding, which I'm happy about.

Ok so for the M+ part, I think the damage and atonement % nerfs are gonna affect us harder there, atonement is already not too strong in M+ and a big factor when doing M+ as disc is whether or not atonement can heal through a mechanic and/or dot, that bar is already not too high imo and when it breaks it forces you to shadowmend a lot more, which really reduces your ability to contribute to the fight, it drains your mana badly while doing no damage further increasing the length of the fight. It's understandable that you have to in some situations when dealing with very strong dots or heavy tank damage but the more we can avoid it the better it feels to play the spec.
10/24/2018 09:33 AMPosted by Holymonky
I don't think that buffing one azerite trait that promotes more usage of one of the spells we normally try to avoid will solve this (specially since we avoid it because it's mana expensive not because it's that bad), and its an Azerite trait which you may not even have.
Shadow Mend was already used by a lot of higher end Mythic raiders because of the larger up front heal and the added GCD on the Atonements it provides (Atonement applied after the cast rather than instantly). The trait change to Depth of Shadows will most definitely have an impact on playstyle as Shadow Mend is now more likely to be used because of the difference in mana from PW:S as well as the much improved healing bonus on the trait and the additional 3 seconds added to Atonements applied with Shadow Mend (would basically be 4 seconds total).

Obviously this varies based on damage pattern, and PW:S would still be used if people didn't need direct healing, if you need to ramp up on the move, or if the added 4 seconds to Atonement wouldn't benefit your healing at all. As you said you're not concerned about throughput. These changes give us more choices to make and will improve how the spec plays imo.

The change to the mana cost of PW:S will definitely limit our total Atonements that can be out either between bursts or for bursts, but won't have a major impact on overall output given we're getting a better spot heal as a result. This just puts more onus on players to not dump their mana.

TLDR: I think the changes offer a lot of interesting gameplay decisions and I think the spec will probably feel better to most people when using a spell that was relatively untouched by most (Shadow Mend). The HN trait is the same way, it will provide us with some interesting changes and introduce HN into our rotation.

10/24/2018 09:33 AMPosted by Holymonky
Ok so for the M+ part, I think the damage and atonement % nerfs are gonna affect us harder there, atonement is already not too strong in M+ and a big factor when doing M+ as disc is whether or not atonement can heal through a mechanic and/or dot, that bar is already not too high imo and when it breaks it forces you to shadowmend a lot more, which really reduces your ability to contribute to the fight, it drains your mana badly while doing no damage further increasing the length of the fight. It's understandable that you have to in some situations when dealing with very strong dots or heavy tank damage but the more we can avoid it the better it feels to play the spec.
The change just makes you have to decide between focusing on healing or focusing on DPS, like other healers have to do already. I think a lot of Disc Priests leaned on Atonement healing to carry them even in some rough spots, and with the changes, it will make you have to decide how to react. It most definitely will have some impact on damage contribution but I don't think it will be as drastic as it seems. I think Disc will also see a decrease in representation for higher keys.

I mentioned in a Reddit post this morning the following and it's relevant here:

The issue with competitive M+ is that the game isn't necessarily balanced around that content. It's first balanced around Mythic raiding and then tweaked to ensure people can complete their 10 keys (or soon to be 15 I'd assume) to get their weekly cache. At that level of play most healers are "balanced" since the dungeons aren't necessarily hard or challenging so any healer can complete those. The issues become more apparent at the extreme end of the bell curve where clearly some spec's become better than others.
We're looking at some gameplay improvements to 80-90% of the game / Disc playerbase, but the changes may negatively impact those playing at the extreme end of the bell curve more adversely than those not playing at that level. Competitive M+ will see a meta shift probably and Disc will be less represented there (but still some will be able to do fine I think). The difference between Disc and other specs is just a bit closer now.

I don't think it's the right way to go, I also stated in the same Reddit post:

In a perfect world there would be a scaling modifier for M+ that would "balance" specs to make things more competitive and make it more a matter of choosing which utility you'd rather take (shaman interrupt, disc mitigation, MW throughput, etc) rather than which healer is the meta choice just because it happens to have x% more dps or x% more throughput because of some choices made to balance them in completely different situations. I think we're going to continue to see M+ get the short end of the stick in terms of balance until Blizzard decides to treat it similar to PVP with different scaling and talents for that content.


At the end of the day I hope M+ gets some attention in regards to balance in a way that won't interfere with raiding or PvP.
My sub expires in 2 days, not gonna play this ..... anymore
Shadow Mend was already used by a lot of higher end Mythic raiders because of the larger up front heal and the added GCD on the Atonements it provides (Atonement applied after the cast rather than instantly). The trait change to Depth of Shadows will most definitely have an impact on playstyle as Shadow Mend is now more likely to be used because of the difference in mana from PW:S as well as the much improved healing bonus on the trait and the additional 3 seconds added to Atonements applied with Shadow Mend (would basically be 4 seconds total).

Obviously this varies based on damage pattern, and PW:S would still be used if people didn't need direct healing, if you need to ramp up on the move, or if the added 4 seconds to Atonement wouldn't benefit your healing at all. As you said you're not concerned about throughput. These changes give us more choices to make and will improve how the spec plays imo.

Ok, this all makes sense, maybe it's just a matter of changing my playstyle and allow myself to shadowmend more, if that's the case and this is effective (i.e. and not totally drain my mana) then I agree, being able to spot heal more effectively will help the spec be more flexible in what it does in raids.
Given the fact that you should have ample time to prepare for burst windows via addons and the added mana cost increase of PWS in the next patch, I never took into account the second or two prolonged on atonement duration from smend by having it apply after the GCD is over.

Is smend going to be a more valuable atonement applicator than shield in the near future? (Assuming rapture isn’t up)
For the M+ part, yes I mean it's not like the spec will go from one of the best to complete thrash, it's just that I think the damage nerfs will actually a bit of a bigger impact than what it seems: Let's say they were to nerf our damage by a flat X%, this means that while we are dpsing we would in fact do X% less, but we would also need to start using shadowmend more which would reduce the time we can actually spend DPSing further reducing our damage.

10/24/2018 10:21 AMPosted by Mendqt
The change just makes you have to decide between focusing on healing or focusing on DPS, like other healers have to do already.

Well the thing with Disc is that our AOE healing is tied to our DPS, we have to choose between single target healing and AOE healing as all healers do, if the nerf was only impacting our ability to DPS because we do too much damage then fine but it's also hitting our AOE healing quite a bit.

10/24/2018 10:21 AMPosted by Mendqt
I think a lot of Disc Priests leaned on Atonement healing to carry them even in some rough spots, and with the changes, it will make you have to decide how to react.

From the comments I've read it's kind of the opposite, a lot of Disc priests tend to shadow mend too much, it takes time to learn when players might dip low but are not in actual danger of dying so you can just let atonement slowly top them off rather than using shadow mend, I know that for me at least the more I learned the dungeons the more opportunities I've found to use atonement instead of shadowmend to try to top ppl off as fast as possible.

When it comes to AOE healing then well yes, we are supposed to lean on atonement as much as possible since that's our primary way to AOE, will still need to throw a few shadowmends here and there to ppl who are falling behind ofc.

10/24/2018 10:21 AMPosted by Mendqt
At the end of the day I hope M+ gets some attention in regards to balance in a way that won't interfere with raiding or PvP.

Yeah I agree I think it ultimately comes to this, the issue is just that the way atonement scales for different group sizes. Don't get me wrong I love the current atonement mechanic, I think that we just need a few more tools so it can be balanced for different types of content.

I've proposed this before, some ppl liked it and some didn't but I believe that a talent that would help us tailor atonement to a smaller group size would be the answer, Sins of the Many does this but I think we still need a bit more if we want to achieve a better balance. I was thinking on a talent that could be in row 100 competing with Evangelism and Lum Barrier (which seem to be related to how to tailor our kit for different raid sizes), my idea was something that makes pw:radiance be able to apply a second stack of atonement when it lands on targets that already have it, would be pretty useless in large groups since you have too many ppl already but could be very good in M+ and help compensate for atonement nerfs (present and possible future) without setting our DPS too high.
10/24/2018 10:49 AMPosted by Voidguise
My sub expires in 2 days, not gonna play this ..... anymore


Sweet, laterz.
Holy got nerfs too just yesterday
RIP Disc PvP. The guys acting like this is a positive nerf are delusional. Not gamebreaking for Raiding I agree, but not positive. Sucks pretty hard for M+. Definitely over for Disc PvP wise.
10/24/2018 04:54 PMPosted by Ambergrís
RIP Disc PvP. The guys acting like this is a positive nerf are delusional. Not gamebreaking for Raiding I agree, but not positive. Sucks pretty hard for M+. Definitely over for Disc PvP wise.
Imagine being so focused on throughput you ignore gameplay improvements. Disc needed this nerf in all content, be happy they are making it play better as a consolation.

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