How LFR is ACTUALLY killing the game.

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I do not view LFR to be a real raid. I do view it as something for progression, like in MoP and WoD for the legendary cloak and ring. Or just another place to grind loot for the week in addition to doing Mythic/Mythic+ and warfronts.

Over all, it's just another shot at loot, to progress your character from a min/max perspective then doing the raid you wanted to do and grind that raid for said loot.
10/27/2018 08:04 AMPosted by Chikishi
I wouldn't mind seeing LFR take a dirtnap. But here's your choice, OP:

LFR stays more or less as-is

or

there is absolutely no story content locked behind raids. Not a single cinematic or gate to other content.

You decide!

Not everyone wants to raid "seriously".


Without LFR, raids would consist of World Bosses. The developers added LFR because management told them to stop spending the majority of their creative resources on content seen by less than 10% of the subscriber base.

So without LFR, you wouldn't have indoor raids anymore.
Wrong.
Okay so the very first thing in the original post, because I'm too lazy to quote it right now, is first impressions matter.

Let's look at it another way, if you removed LFR the first impression then get skewed by people wanting 360+ for normal Uldir, and other various issues you can have in any pug. I'm not saying LFR is a solution, it just helps make raiding in general more accessible to everyone.
10/27/2018 07:45 AMPosted by Sacrosànct
First off: To all the people who clicked this simply to call me an elitist be quick about it so the adults can talk.

Now on to the actual point of this post.

How is LFR killing the game? Simply put it gives people a terrible introduction to what raiding actually is. As the old saying goes first impressions matter. If you're a new player now chances are that your first time in a raid was LFR. Now some of you might be thinking that the terrible first impression that gives you is the toxic environment you are in.

Nope, although admittedly that isn't great. The problem is what it teaches you about raiding. In LFR the mechanics pretty much don't matter. Too the point where it usually only requires 5 people doing them properly to beat the boss. This creates bad habits, so that by the time you try your first normal mode you have no idea what you are actually doing.

Contrast this to what the first raiding experience was for people who raided in the pre-LFR days. We learned the hard way in our first raid how important the mechanics, and learning to deal with them, were. We learned the value of research. This taught us something; raid awareness. We had to learn to play our class well enough so that we could do it blindfolded, freeing up our attention for everything else that was going on around us.

The reason LFR is killing wow is that as old players leave the game, there are few people to replace them with who haven't picked up the bad habits I described as taking place in an LFR run. So now not only do you have to get someone up to speed with the way your guild raids, you have to teach them how to raid properly. And because these players are so used to the bosses just falling over from a light breeze this new world becomes disheartening to them. The attrition rate gets worse and worse.

This more than anything else will kill this game, as evidenced by the steady decline in subs over the years.

Brace yourself for the LFR heroes calling me an elitist no-lifer below.
wow, 4 pages and only 5 up-votes. only 5 ppl agree with you and your opinion. kindly step off that crate and hand it to the next elitest.
TLDR version of OP's opinion and all others like his:

OMG COMPLETE STRANGERS ARE PLAYING THE GAME DIFFERENTLY THAN ME HOW DARE THEY!!!!???
10/27/2018 08:08 AMPosted by Eyrinjia
LFR is not, and never was intended to be, an introduction to raiding.


Except it was intended to be that. It was intended to be get people into raiding.

"I have a lot of regrets about Raid Finder for WoW. I am sure I worked on features that were much, much worse, but that's the first one that came to mind.

To be clear, the goal of getting more players into raiding is a good one. But the way Raid Finder turned out removed, IMO anyway, a lot of the epicness of what made raiding raiding. I also haven't played WoW in a few years, so it's entirely possible they have solved the problem by now."


https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/52fxo1/ama_league_design_lead_greg_ghostcrawler_street/d7jwm98
10/27/2018 07:45 AMPosted by Sacrosànct
First off: To all the people who clicked this simply to call me an elitist be quick about it so the adults can talk.

Now on to the actual point of this post.

How is LFR killing the game? Simply put it gives people a terrible introduction to what raiding actually is. As the old saying goes first impressions matter. If you're a new player now chances are that your first time in a raid was LFR. Now some of you might be thinking that the terrible first impression that gives you is the toxic environment you are in.

Nope, although admittedly that isn't great. The problem is what it teaches you about raiding. In LFR the mechanics pretty much don't matter. Too the point where it usually only requires 5 people doing them properly to beat the boss. This creates bad habits, so that by the time you try your first normal mode you have no idea what you are actually doing.

Contrast this to what the first raiding experience was for people who raided in the pre-LFR days. We learned the hard way in our first raid how important the mechanics, and learning to deal with them, were. We learned the value of research. This taught us something; raid awareness. We had to learn to play our class well enough so that we could do it blindfolded, freeing up our attention for everything else that was going on around us.

The reason LFR is killing wow is that as old players leave the game, there are few people to replace them with who haven't picked up the bad habits I described as taking place in an LFR run. So now not only do you have to get someone up to speed with the way your guild raids, you have to teach them how to raid properly. And because these players are so used to the bosses just falling over from a light breeze this new world becomes disheartening to them. The attrition rate gets worse and worse.

This more than anything else will kill this game, as evidenced by the steady decline in subs over the years.

Brace yourself for the LFR heroes calling me an elitist no-lifer below.
roll eyes-- most people watch the raid fights for normal to see what is going to happen and most cases mandatory or they won't get a spot.
So you think it is perfectly acceptable to be recycling raids eh OP?
Ghostcrawler said last week that LFR was one of his worst mistakes. Everything Ghostcraslwer did was bad, all the nerf and prunes to classes are terrible and I can feel it to this day. Should just undo everything he did.
[quote="207682096703"So now not only do you have to get someone up to speed with the way your guild raids, you have to teach them how to raid properly. [/quote]

Oh good, we're finally being honest about that "strong feeling of community" nonsense. Apparently now, going from LFR to Normal is some sort of ground-breaking, world-shaking transformation that not even a group of mostly clueless PUGers who barely communicate can handle.

Oh, wait...
10/27/2018 10:00 AMPosted by Zaiya
Ghostcrawler said last week that LFR was one of his worst mistakes.


No he didn't, actually. Stop perpetuating that outright lie.
I can actually agree that LFR is a poor representation of what the actual raid fights are. Some LFR fights omit certain mechanics that make the fight trivial, however in a sense so does normal compared to heroic.

An example is the fight in Tomb of Sargaras, The Desolate Host. In the LFR fight you have no final phase where the Host erupts and you fight it as well as the spirit. Instead you just follow the simple mechanics and burn down the host. If I am correct you don't even need to split into a dead and live side for this.

The mentality then when a LFR only raider decided to venture into a normal mode, where even in normal some fights have mechanics that can still kill you, players will just not do these, and example is Ghuun. In LFR I hear stories where players will just not do the orb run to activate the laser. Then when someone eventually does do it, they won't do it again when Ghuun is out, because they don't want it to effect their DPS.

Bottom line, LFR does offer players who do not have the time for a raid schedule to see and enjoy the content, however it also encourages players to just be lazy.
10/27/2018 07:51 AMPosted by Sorelai
LFR isn't an introduction to raiding. It is a culmination to the story for many players who don't want to participate in organized raiding.


Or want to but CAN'T because of real life priorities which is OK too. Some people on here think everyone can put some serious time down to sit for 3-4 hours wiping and progressing for a few nights a week which they do not understand.

I defend LFR because I know how busy people can become all the time with work, responsiblity, children, yata yata but players who have no life feel so entitled that their heroic or mythic progression is threatened by something else that doesn't actually affect them one bit. This is coming from a 8/8 normal/heroic and 2/8 mythic player btw.
Without LFR, I wouldnt raid at all, I would more likely unsub when i finish solo content rather than stay the full lifespan of the expansion. In that regard LFR is doing its job by enticing casuals like me to keep playing.
10/27/2018 07:45 AMPosted by Sacrosànct
First off: To all the people who clicked this simply to call me an elitist be quick about it so the adults can talk.

Now on to the actual point of this post.

How is LFR killing the game? Simply put it gives people a terrible introduction to what raiding actually is. As the old saying goes first impressions matter. If you're a new player now chances are that your first time in a raid was LFR. Now some of you might be thinking that the terrible first impression that gives you is the toxic environment you are in.

Nope, although admittedly that isn't great. The problem is what it teaches you about raiding. In LFR the mechanics pretty much don't matter. Too the point where it usually only requires 5 people doing them properly to beat the boss. This creates bad habits, so that by the time you try your first normal mode you have no idea what you are actually doing.

Contrast this to what the first raiding experience was for people who raided in the pre-LFR days. We learned the hard way in our first raid how important the mechanics, and learning to deal with them, were. We learned the value of research. This taught us something; raid awareness. We had to learn to play our class well enough so that we could do it blindfolded, freeing up our attention for everything else that was going on around us.

The reason LFR is killing wow is that as old players leave the game, there are few people to replace them with who haven't picked up the bad habits I described as taking place in an LFR run. So now not only do you have to get someone up to speed with the way your guild raids, you have to teach them how to raid properly. And because these players are so used to the bosses just falling over from a light breeze this new world becomes disheartening to them. The attrition rate gets worse and worse.

This more than anything else will kill this game, as evidenced by the steady decline in subs over the years.

Brace yourself for the LFR heroes calling me an elitist no-lifer below.


NPC meme.

LFR is good for having more / better raids made since the numbers are sufficient to expend the resources and the difficulties allow people who only find self worth doing what many others do for fun by being computer game heros get more chances to make them selves feel good about them selves. Kind of limiting yourself that way since real life matters and is in the end much more full filling, but I"m glad you enjoy having your NPC programed responses make you feel good about yourself.

I'm pretty happy with my journey through life, and my wish is instead of spending all your npc time feeling angry and looking for things to be offended by you can evolve to thinking for yourself and not feeling jealous that others walk their own walk while you walk yours.

That's freedom for ya, ain't it.

Just take personal responsibility and find your walk and walk it. I won't resent that path.

Truth is I won't bother to even think about it after I hit post. You and your journey just don't matter to me, just as mine should not matter to you.

Seek to become self actualized and you will begin to be wise and see such things.

Oh passive aggressive things like "adult" and "LFR heroes", those type things reveal a lot about your levels of maturity that you need to tell the world you are an adult. The real best and brightest in the world are also the ones who least feel the need to let others know that they are the best and brightest. They just walk their walk and produce excellent results for themselves and ignore those who would drag them down.

I'm told that there are places and people who work at helping such limited people overcome their self imposed limits.
I read your post and I have played this game since 2004 and also played its original in 1995, I disagree with you but yes you have a point. The rewards from a Normal/heroic/mythic as opposed to a LFR vary and that in itself is why LFR is a must. Not everyone has a go to guild that raids and for the most part LFR meets this exact demand. Case in point, I disagree, LFR is helping the game.
10/27/2018 09:43 AMPosted by Tarc
10/27/2018 07:45 AMPosted by Sacrosànct
the people who clicked this simply to call me an elitist be quick about it so the adults can talk.


The ones who call you a whiny, elitist snotrag are the adults, kiddo.

Different people play the game at different levels. Accept that, or move on.


Actually I didn't come in this thread to call him an elitist jerk. I read his post and NOW call him an elitist jerk.
10/27/2018 09:36 AMPosted by Snowfox
.. but imho, the real interesting question is why so many LEAVE it.
It's an honest question But You can always assume there is a plethora of reasons.

Most common I've seen have been--
1- Got older and has a hard time keeping up.
2- Time constraints.
3- Negative experiences from Loot council/Guilds.

I can't speak on new players. I haven't seen a new player in a long time. Had a handful during WoD when I was in a guild.

They tried LFR, then tested the waters for Higher Skill difficulties and just didn't like it.

We had 2 that actually joined our raid team. One left for a better guild with a better Progression Team and the other went back to LFR.
10/27/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Sorelai
10/27/2018 08:04 AMPosted by Chikishi
I wouldn't mind seeing LFR take a dirtnap. But here's your choice, OP:

LFR stays more or less as-is

or

there is absolutely no story content locked behind raids. Not a single cinematic or gate to other content.

You decide!

Not everyone wants to raid "seriously".


Without LFR, raids would consist of World Bosses. The developers added LFR because management told them to stop spending the majority of their creative resources on content seen by less than 10% of the subscriber base.

So without LFR, you wouldn't have indoor raids anymore.


False and I challenge you to provide ANY evidence that if LFR was removed we’d have no more raids or that “management” made any such decree.

If raids were removed from WoW then there would be nothing to do endgame and the game would die in a heartbeat ... meanwhile LFR could be removed tomorrow and the game would go on just fine because LFR only exist to give easy gear to casuals and returning players but now you can get tons of easy gear from plenty of non-LFR sources so it wouldn’t even be missed.

The raids are what keep people subbed for an entire expansion. If we only had M+ and world bosses then the game would get very boring very fast.

Finally, going by the data on sites that analyze WoW achievements, the percentage of players who ONLY do LFR isn’t much higher than the percentage of players who raid Mythic which means the MAJORITY of players who raid do so in levels above LFR and as I said above, they wouldn’t miss LFR at all.

If you only do LFR then you’re in a super small minority and going by your own logic, Blizzard shouldn’t spend money on something only ~10% of the players care about.

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