Being Evil Empire AND Rebels Sucks

Story Forum
Hey it’s not fun hating you one minute before forgiving and trusting you the next. Feels like a battered spouse.

I apologize to any battered spouses and affiliates.
11/03/2018 12:20 PMPosted by Cryptkeeps
Probably because ya'll have drank way too many gallons of that suspicious Kool-Aid to understand that Alliance and Horde have never been morally equal, and that the Alliance have always been the good guys since WC1.

WC3/WoW Vanilla devs disagree with you. They started out thinking that way, but changed their minds before launch. Here's a quote from vanilla dev Bo Bell:

Early on, the Horde was definitely considered the "evil" faction.... But then, there was the epiphany that some people were into playing evil races/factions. Whereas a LOT more people wanted to play as these "evil races" ... but as the good guys (Thrall's Orcs during WCIII).

(Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/9fb2bo/john_staats_ama_author_of_the_world_of_warcraft/ --search for "Qayindo")
The biggest issue with the horde is the forsaken. They don't match up with the ideals and values of 90% of the rest of the horde, and why tauren, trolls and more honorable leaning orcs put up with them I'll never understand.

They were fine when they weren't the main focus, they could do their shady evil stuff out of the spotlight to keep forsaken fans happy, while the more thrall's horde side of things was the face. Now it doesn't even feel like I'm serving the horde, I'm stuck fighting for the lich queen and her evil zombie friends with token other horde races thrown in.
11/04/2018 11:06 AMPosted by Kitnara
The biggest issue with the horde is the forsaken. They don't match up with the ideals and values of 90% of the rest of the horde, and why tauren, trolls and more honorable leaning orcs put up with them I'll never understand.


3/6 is not 90%
even with allied races the 'OG horde' values are still only 5/9
11/04/2018 11:11 AMPosted by Ninh
11/04/2018 11:06 AMPosted by Kitnara
The biggest issue with the horde is the forsaken. They don't match up with the ideals and values of 90% of the rest of the horde, and why tauren, trolls and more honorable leaning orcs put up with them I'll never understand.


3/6 is not 90%
even with allied races the 'OG horde' values are still only 5/9


Who sides with sylvanas?
Goblins, because they don't have values. Blood elves I guess, so apparently they'll wave away war crimes because Sylvanas was their ranger general once before ahe power slid into a sword. Maybe nightborne? But I feel like Thalyssra would be warry if dealing with another dictator.

Both types of orcs, both types of tauren, trolls, pandaren would all oppose Sylvanas, as well as probably some blood elves and nightborne.
I never thought Warcraft's story would deteriorate to the point where SWTOR ended up doing a better job portraying two superpowers with fundamentally different politics, cultures, and sets of morality/alignments better than Blizz's Alliance and Horde.
11/04/2018 11:22 AMPosted by Kitnara
11/04/2018 11:11 AMPosted by Ninh
...

3/6 is not 90%
even with allied races the 'OG horde' values are still only 5/9


Who sides with sylvanas?
Goblins, because they don't have values. Blood elves I guess, so apparently they'll wave away war crimes because Sylvanas was their ranger general once before ahe power slid into a sword. Maybe nightborne? But I feel like Thalyssra would be warry if dealing with another dictator.

Both types of orcs, both types of tauren, trolls, pandaren would all oppose Sylvanas, as well as probably some blood elves and nightborne.


Sylvanas has just ushered for the orcs a new era of conquest. They've supported four different leaders off the top of my head that have all done the same exact thing as Sylvanas. Why would they give a !@#$?
11/03/2018 12:20 PMPosted by Cryptkeeps
Probably because ya'll have drank way too many gallons of that suspicious Kool-Aid to understand that Alliance and Horde have never been morally equal, and that the Alliance have always been the good guys since WC1.

WC3/WoW Vanilla devs disagree with you. They started out thinking that way, but changed their minds before launch. Here's a quote from vanilla dev Bo Bell:

Early on, the Horde was definitely considered the "evil" faction.... But then, there was the epiphany that some people were into playing evil races/factions. Whereas a LOT more people wanted to play as these "evil races" ... but as the good guys (Thrall's Orcs during WCIII).

(Source: https://www.reddit.com/r/classicwow/comments/9fb2bo/john_staats_ama_author_of_the_world_of_warcraft/ --search for "Qayindo")
And thus, the faction of having your cake and murdering it too was born.
11/05/2018 04:52 AMPosted by Serevèn
And thus, the faction of having your cake and murdering it too was born.

No. My point is that is not what the faction was designed to be. Subsequent writers have perverted the original intention. Please get your head out of your forum PVP.
11/03/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Serevèn
11/02/2018 10:56 PMPosted by Skytotem
"Don't trust those primitives to govern themselves cause they'll just turn evil"
Aw, don't look at it like that. Think of yourselves as the foreign colonizers who traveled to the new world, wiped out multiple groups of natives, and befriended some others to feel your claim to manifest destiny was legitimate.


Poor kid, the only aliens "colonizers" of the Horde were the orcs, I do not know if you remember all that demonic blood thing.

Before coming to a conclusion, the Alliance has humans, dwarves and gnomes as descendants of alien titanic constructions, draenei from another world, human modified - worgens, and only night elfs, pandarens, and some void elfs have native origin in Azeroth.

Horde "colonizers" and non-natives from azeroth: (orcs and new mag'har) 2/10 races.
Alliance colonizers and non-natives from azeroth: 5/10
11/05/2018 05:05 AMPosted by Pellex
11/05/2018 04:52 AMPosted by Serevèn
And thus, the faction of having your cake and murdering it too was born.

No. My point is that is not what the faction was designed to be. Subsequent writers have perverted the original intention. Please get your head out of your forum PVP.
Your quote speaks for itself well enough. You're the faction of heroes and acceptance. You just went a step too far and turned acceptance into permissiveness over genocide. You can scream intent in the face of reality all you like, it doesn't change the fact that the Horde is comprised of peoples with a massive, irreconcilable gulf in philosophies between them. You are the faction of heroes AND murderers. From the beginning.
11/02/2018 09:48 PMPosted by Mustakraken

11/02/2018 09:37 PMPosted by Yagarr
I think many of the pro-Sylvanas crowd doesn't want to be an "evil" empire. They want to be cruel, vicious, and violent, but feel entirely justified in doing so.

I don't even think they want to be justified, so much as they don't want members of their own faction to be wagging their fingers at them every time the story has them behaving as such. If we have to be evil can we at least have fun doing it without a sermon about duty and honor every few minutes?
I am okay with this.
I don't mind being the good guys. :P
I say if you guys wanna be evil and chop up civilians and burn babies alive, than own it.
So then I can own you.
:D
11/05/2018 05:27 AMPosted by Linoradrin
11/03/2018 11:43 AMPosted by Serevèn
...Aw, don't look at it like that. Think of yourselves as the foreign colonizers who traveled to the new world, wiped out multiple groups of natives, and befriended some others to feel your claim to manifest destiny was legitimate.


Poor kid, the only aliens "colonizers" of the Horde were the orcs, I do not know if you remember all that demonic blood thing.

Before coming to a conclusion, the Alliance has humans, dwarves and gnomes as descendants of alien titanic constructions, draenei from another world, human modified - worgens, and only night elfs, pandarens, and some void elfs have native origin in Azeroth.

Horde "colonizers" and non-natives from azeroth: (orcs and new mag'har) 2/10 races.
Alliance colonizers and non-natives from azeroth: 5/10
Calling native born earthen constructs foreign colonizers in the same spirit as the genocidal invaders who founded the Horde is both wildly disingenuous and misunderstands what was being said. Congrats! But yes, do go on about how a persecuted people on exodus and peoples living on the planet for tens of thousands of years are AS non-native as the alien invaders from ten years ago, and their genocide enabling allies.

PS, if you go ahead and re-read? I already talked about how "valid" the orcs feel their genocidal colonization of the new world was. Thanks, native allies!

PPS, You forgot to count Forsaken as non native, following your warped standards.
[/quote]
PPS, You forgot to count Forsaken as non native, following your warped standards.[/quote]

Yes! I forgot, thanks.
3/10*
Calling native born earthen constructs foreign colonizers in the same spirit as the genocidal invaders who founded the Horde is both wildly disingenuous and misunderstands what was being said. Congrats! But yes, do go on about how a persecuted people on exodus and peoples living on the planet for tens of thousands of years are AS non-native as the alien invaders from ten years ago, and their genocide enabling allies.

PS, if you go ahead and re-read? I already talked about how "valid" the orcs feel their genocidal colonization of the new world was. Thanks, native allies!

PPS, You forgot to count Forsaken as non native, following your warped standards.


Do you really think I care for the motives that brought that people here? Or with all this "good" or "evil" thing?

Read again, after all, I'm bringing up the fact that most of the Horde races are not "aliens colonizers influenced by demonic blood" but rather natives from Azeroth, so most of the Horde - which was not in that first faction constitution - does not deserve to be treated as such. The Alliance on the other hand had many races of external origin, and whether they wanted to or not, the Titans, for example, came to Azeroth and their constructions developed and colonized the planet.

Let's try again: a "primitive" race born in Azeroth were the trolls, but not the "advanced" dwarves descended from alien constructs, it's so simple.
11/05/2018 07:11 AMPosted by Serevèn
Your quote speaks for itself well enough. You're the faction of heroes and acceptance. You just went a step too far and turned acceptance into permissiveness over genocide.

(sigh)

Once again. I did nothing. I do not control the story.

But I can see that arguing this is going to be fruitless. Take the last word if you want. I give up.
11/05/2018 07:11 AMPosted by Serevèn
You just went a step too far and turned acceptance into permissiveness over genocide.


Exactly this. Considering there is a backlash from Horde Player's to Saurfang's role in the story is telling. People calling him a traitor because he sees Sylvanas as an enemy before the Alliance.

Fighting for Sylvanas' Horde means you activly endorse or apologize for genocide, or you are a complacient bystander of it. Either way, it's not a good look for anyone.
11/05/2018 09:51 AMPosted by Akiyass
11/05/2018 07:11 AMPosted by Serevèn
You just went a step too far and turned acceptance into permissiveness over genocide.


Exactly this. Considering there is a backlash from Horde Player's to Saurfang's role in the story is telling. People calling him a traitor because he sees Sylvanas as an enemy before the Alliance.

Fighting for Sylvanas' Horde means you activly endorse or apologize for genocide, or you are a complacient bystander of it. Either way, it's not a good look for anyone.


That is not the case for many.

The issue for many horde players is not that he opposes Sylvanas, but that he needed a peptalk from Goldenboy to do it
Just as an aside for everyone, everyone does know that all "native" life is from Freya now yes? That per Chronical 1 pg 39-40 she populated it, at the same time the titan constructs were placed there? So the titan construct races have just as much legitimacy as the one's created by the lifebinder.

Its one of the main reason I dislike people calling Humans/Dwarves/gnomes colonizers, they arnt. Their ancestors were placed there the same time as natural life was on azeroth minus the Aqir.
11/04/2018 11:22 AMPosted by Kitnara
Who sides with sylvanas?


This doesn't matter.
You're original argument was that the forsaken don't connect with the 'values and ideals of 90% of the Horde' not Sylvanas' support within the Horde. This is blatantly untrue no matter whether they support Sylvanas or not.

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