Rogues

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
May as well delete all other melee dps. I mean they seem to bring everything that every other dps has and lets face it they are always strong.

I get that not all classes will b e strong at everything but THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE HAVE TO BEAT OUT TO FIND A SPOT. They avoid admitting this a is a problem by saying only the top players in the competitions do this but monkey see monkey do really applies to this stuff.

It's very obvious that the specs/classes are not even close if they were close you would see a variation at least but you don't
Current game state is a disaster. I feel embarrassed as an old player (since very beginning of BC).
Ion should leave if he has any dignity.
yup. truth
What specifically is the issue? All rogues or just a specific spec? You need to be more detailed. What are you having issues with? What level of activity? What gear level, what class are you playing?
I mean this is my main its Feral it is struggling but my point I was trying to make is when is a rogue not good. We have a rogue in our guild that continually destroys everyone even if the fight is aoe or single target also look at the mythic+ and see what dps is on top it will be rogues by a long shot. Pretty sure all the rogue specs are very strong right now. Also they're ability to cheese most mechanincs using cloak allows them to just sit on most bosses like a patchwork fight. I really wish they would make it so cloak didn't work on so many raid abilities. Most of my guilds around 380 i level.

I will also say this if you didn't know what i was talking about you must be living under a rock I honestly feel like your entire post was meant to be condescending Gnovia. Not taking it that way its just you never know on these forums.
Rogue and DH you mean.
Don't forget DH. Bring a rogue, bring a DH and voila, you are set.
So many tears
Listen man, I don't play a rogue... I play mage. A class that just progressively gets worse as time goes on. (When was the last time we got a good change?)

Either way, I honestly feel like rogues or DH are not the issue here. Rather than nerf other classes so everyone is miserable, why not vouch for buffs and changes to your own class so everyone feels good?
I think it's three specific things about rogues that may need some review from the dev team (this is PvE exclusive):

1) Shroud - I don't think the mass stealth mechanic to skip stuff in the dungeon is that broken since you can do similar things with an invis potion, the problem is that it puts all your battle potions in a 10m CD timer.. It makes sense that the invis potion itself has a long CD (10min), you don't want groups using it every minute to skip stuff, but it should be an independent CD from the battle potions. I believe this is the most important fix, and it's not even a nerf to rogues but a change in the invis potion mechanic.

2) Defensives - Rogues are supposed to be mobile, provide strong utility in terms of CC and add control, which they do. But they should also be squishy, a risk-reward kind of thing. If you take a Rogue, you know he brings so much to the table but you should also know that he's prone to dying, and that's not the case, rogues have one of the best defensive kits.

3) Sub Rogue priority damage - This is specific for sub-rogue and only for super high-end (MDI) levels, it doesn't apply to most people.. I do relatively high keys (+13 to +15 range) and it still doesn't apply on that level, but the priority damage of sub-rogue when fed with thrash mobs to use as AOE fodder to skyrocket their single target damage proved to be a bit too overpowered, it happened in the MDI and it happened in Mythic Zul for top-end guilds. I don't think this should be completely gutted but perhaps just toned down a little bit and compensated with a bit more AOE. Most rogues at more "regular" levels are not even playing sub since pulling extra adds into the boss is not a strategy many people use.

I honestly think that looking at this three points and making the necessary fixes would be enough to bring Rogues in-line, none of this points represents a massive nerf to rogues in terms of DPS or what they do and how they work.
11/09/2018 10:25 PMPosted by Holymonky
I think it's three specific things about rogues that may need some review from the dev team (this is PvE exclusive):

1) Shroud - I don't think the mass stealth mechanic to skip stuff in the dungeon is that broken since you can do similar things with an invis potion, the problem is that it puts all your battle potions in a 10m CD timer.. It makes sense that the invis potion itself has a long CD (10min), you don't want groups using it every minute to skip stuff, but it should be an independent CD from the battle potions. I believe this is the most important fix, and it's not even a nerf to rogues but a change in the invis potion mechanic.

2) Defensives - Rogues are supposed to be mobile, provide strong utility in terms of CC and add control, which they do. But they should also be squishy, a risk-reward kind of thing. If you take a Rogue, you know he brings so much to the table but you should also know that he's prone to dying, and that's not the case, rogues have one of the best defensive kits.

3) Sub Rogue priority damage - This is specific for sub-rogue and only for super high-end (MDI) levels, it doesn't apply to most people.. I do relatively high keys (+13 to +15 range) and it still doesn't apply on that level, but the priority damage of sub-rogue when fed with thrash mobs to use as AOE fodder to skyrocket their single target damage proved to be a bit too overpowered, it happened in the MDI and it happened in Mythic Zul for top-end guilds. I don't think this should be completely gutted but perhaps just toned down a little bit and compensated with a bit more AOE. Most rogues at more "regular" levels are not even playing sub since pulling extra adds into the boss is not a strategy many people use.

I honestly think that looking at this three points and making the necessary fixes would be enough to bring Rogues in-line, none of this points represents a massive nerf to rogues in terms of DPS or what they do and how they work.


You should go and check out top end M+ streams, you'll see how strong assassination AOE is. People still stuck with the mentality that assassination is weak AOE but currently it is one of the strongest. It doesn't reach DH level AOE damage but it is within 5%
11/09/2018 11:52 PMPosted by Ashenan
11/09/2018 10:25 PMPosted by Holymonky
I think it's three specific things about rogues that may need some review from the dev team (this is PvE exclusive):

1) Shroud - I don't think the mass stealth mechanic to skip stuff in the dungeon is that broken since you can do similar things with an invis potion, the problem is that it puts all your battle potions in a 10m CD timer.. It makes sense that the invis potion itself has a long CD (10min), you don't want groups using it every minute to skip stuff, but it should be an independent CD from the battle potions. I believe this is the most important fix, and it's not even a nerf to rogues but a change in the invis potion mechanic.

2) Defensives - Rogues are supposed to be mobile, provide strong utility in terms of CC and add control, which they do. But they should also be squishy, a risk-reward kind of thing. If you take a Rogue, you know he brings so much to the table but you should also know that he's prone to dying, and that's not the case, rogues have one of the best defensive kits.

3) Sub Rogue priority damage - This is specific for sub-rogue and only for super high-end (MDI) levels, it doesn't apply to most people.. I do relatively high keys (+13 to +15 range) and it still doesn't apply on that level, but the priority damage of sub-rogue when fed with thrash mobs to use as AOE fodder to skyrocket their single target damage proved to be a bit too overpowered, it happened in the MDI and it happened in Mythic Zul for top-end guilds. I don't think this should be completely gutted but perhaps just toned down a little bit and compensated with a bit more AOE. Most rogues at more "regular" levels are not even playing sub since pulling extra adds into the boss is not a strategy many people use.

I honestly think that looking at this three points and making the necessary fixes would be enough to bring Rogues in-line, none of this points represents a massive nerf to rogues in terms of DPS or what they do and how they work.


You should go and check out top end M+ streams, you'll see how strong assassination AOE is. People still stuck with the mentality that assassination is weak AOE but currently it is one of the strongest. It doesn't reach DH level AOE damage but it is within 5%


On mass AoE its near the bottom. Stop talking crap
11/09/2018 11:52 PMPosted by Ashenan
You should go and check out top end M+ streams, you'll see how strong assassination AOE is. People still stuck with the mentality that assassination is weak AOE but currently it is one of the strongest. It doesn't reach DH level AOE damage but it is within 5%

Maybe, not sure tbh. I have assassination rogues in almost every run I do, I know they do good damage but I haven't noticed anything brokenly OP there, however I don't really pay much attention to DPS meters in thrash pulls so can't really tell. I did notice in the MDI an unholy DK pulling 300k dps during big pulls though.

My point is that I'm not sure if rogues are actually broken in terms of dps or not, but I do know the reason why we almost always seek for a rogue in our group is not DPS but Shroud.
11/10/2018 12:34 AMPosted by Holymonky
11/09/2018 11:52 PMPosted by Ashenan
You should go and check out top end M+ streams, you'll see how strong assassination AOE is. People still stuck with the mentality that assassination is weak AOE but currently it is one of the strongest. It doesn't reach DH level AOE damage but it is within 5%

Maybe, not sure tbh. I have assassination rogues in almost every run I do, I know they do good damage but I haven't noticed anything brokenly OP there, however I don't really pay much attention to DPS meters in thrash pulls so can't really tell. I did notice in the MDI an unholy DK pulling 300k dps during big pulls though.

My point is that I'm not sure if rogues are actually broken in terms of dps or not, but I do know the reason why we almost always seek for a rogue in our group is not DPS but Shroud.


You are not wrong. Shroud is indeed crazy good but unfortunately blizzard refuses to either nerf it or give it to other classes just like bloodlust/heroism. In fact, lust/heroism is also on an item. Maybe there should be an item for shroud.
11/10/2018 12:18 AMPosted by Mercader
11/09/2018 11:52 PMPosted by Ashenan
...

You should go and check out top end M+ streams, you'll see how strong assassination AOE is. People still stuck with the mentality that assassination is weak AOE but currently it is one of the strongest. It doesn't reach DH level AOE damage but it is within 5%


On mass AoE its near the bottom. Stop talking crap


You must really suck at rogue to not know how good your AOE is in M+.

Here take some lesson from this guy:
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/333603352

And know how good his DPS is in both single, aoe and cleave.
Wait wait wait did someone say Assassinations aoe dps in keys is low?

Triple SS with CT is probably the best long term aoe there is in the game.

I guess if you do 5 keys all day Sin might seem bad....
11/10/2018 02:06 AMPosted by Ashenan
Shroud is indeed crazy good but unfortunately blizzard refuses to either nerf it or give it to other classes just like bloodlust/heroism. In fact, lust/heroism is also on an item. Maybe there should be an item for shroud.

I agree, that's literally the first point in talked about. There's also an item for it, the invisibility potions "Demitri's Draught of Deception" is the BFA one, I don't believe the stealth to skip mechanic itself is the problem, I'll just quote myself to avoid typing it again:
11/09/2018 10:25 PMPosted by Holymonky
1) Shroud - I don't think the mass stealth mechanic to skip stuff in the dungeon is that broken since you can do similar things with an invis potion, the problem is that it puts all your battle potions in a 10m CD timer.. It makes sense that the invis potion itself has a long CD (10min), you don't want groups using it every minute to skip stuff, but it should be an independent CD from the battle potions. I believe this is the most important fix, and it's not even a nerf to rogues but a change in the invis potion mechanic.
The problem with both Rogues and DH is that they have extremely powerful defenses that outshine any plate classes. There are serious, deeply rooted issues with WoW class design. Plate classes have very poor survivability. I feel like I'm wearing a wet napkin as Frost DK and Ret but as Havoc, I feel like an unkillable god. With Meta and leech talent I can tank no problem as Havoc. Try tanking even for 2 seconds as dps DK.

The real issue with why DH and Rogue are so ridiculously strong is that they have no weakness while many specs have no strengths. What is a Frost DK strength? Frost DK used to have very strong defenses such as AMS (pre-gutted version), Blood Presence (that greatly increased Death strike healing, armor and HPs). Everything has been taken from Frost DK. I honestly have no idea what goes through the Devs minds if it isn't straight up class bias (nothing else makes sense). Why would they gut AMS, while leaving Rogues with a 2 min CD magic immunity?
11/11/2018 12:16 PMPosted by Victor
The problem with both Rogues and DH is that they have extremely powerful defenses that outshine any plate classes. There are serious, deeply rooted issues with WoW class design. Plate classes have very poor survivability. I feel like I'm wearing a wet napkin as Frost DK and Ret but as Havoc, I feel like an unkillable god. With Meta and leech talent I can tank no problem as Havoc. Try tanking even for 2 seconds as dps DK.

The real issue with why DH and Rogue are so ridiculously strong is that they have no weakness while many specs have no strengths. What is a Frost DK strength? Frost DK used to have very strong defenses such as AMS (pre-gutted version), Blood Presence (that greatly increased Death strike healing, armor and HPs). Everything has been taken from Frost DK. I honestly have no idea what goes through the Devs minds if it isn't straight up class bias (nothing else makes sense). Why would they gut AMS, while leaving Rogues with a 2 min CD magic immunity?


I wouldnt say they have no weakness, but you bring up a great point that I was trying to make earlier... It is not that Rogue and DH are overpowered and need to change... its that other classes need to be buffed to also feel good when they play.

Assassin Rogue and DH are listed as some of the most "fun" specs right now to play. Not due to their dps output or whatnot but the fact that they FEEL like a full spec. They have many abilities and many defensives like you stated.

Blizz needs to now focus on reworking other classes one by one if need be, to start making them feel fun first and foremost, and then buff or nerf them numbers wise after their core class abilities are set. No nerfs needed to DH/Rogue, buff other specs to be just as competitive.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum