Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
They feel like full specs because they are good in almost all scenarios. Single target. cleave, AOE, mobility. They also have utility to boot.
11/09/2018 10:11 PMPosted by Gnovia
Either way, I honestly feel like rogues or DH are not the issue here. Rather than nerf other classes so everyone is miserable, why not vouch for buffs and changes to your own class so everyone feels good?
11/12/2018 10:01 PMPosted by Ashenan
They feel like full specs because they are good in almost all scenarios. Single target. cleave, AOE, mobility. They also have utility to boot.
There are a handful of specs (in all roles) that perform and play very well along with providing utility. Rogue is one of them. I play it for the reason that it is enjoyable to play. It is absolutely correct that Rogue provides strong AoE, cleave and ST. Their movement CDs are fantastic when they're needed. Utility in threat direction, stun, CC and soaking is all useful.

So why can't all other specs play just as well?
Why can't specs be designed where their weaknesses are something to be appreciated instead of becoming an unenjoyable burden to the player?

I see/play other specs and want them to do well also. To minimise their weaknesses, and to equalise the playing field in dps and utility. There has been thousands of posts on feedback (seemingly ignored) for the specs not doing well (be it gameplay and/or dps), while it is entirely possible to design spec that does not suck.

The idea to nerf Rogue (and other specs), just because they're playing well is absolutely misguided. We need the developers to listen to feedback, to improve upon those specs that are lagging behind, to improve their dps/hps, utility and playstyle in any role, and to lessen the weaknesses to a point they're enjoyable to play.
Are rogues really that great? Or are the other classes really just that bad?

Rogue is my favorite spec, I'll always be a rogue regardless of how good/bad they are, every game I play I always gravitate toward whatever is closes to a "rogue"

(except in Dragon Age where I was more like a rogue spellsword, god I wish I could be a rogue spellsword in wow...)

However class balance/design is hilariously inadequete, I find it hard to play my arms warrior (Warrior has always been my close second for favorite class followed by shaman) after playing rogue, simply because as arms your defensives consist of a 3 min cd and a shield wall at the cost of damage output (NOT EVEN BASELINE!)... yay!
11/11/2018 01:58 PMPosted by Gnovia
11/11/2018 12:16 PMPosted by Victor
The problem with both Rogues and DH is that they have extremely powerful defenses that outshine any plate classes. There are serious, deeply rooted issues with WoW class design. Plate classes have very poor survivability. I feel like I'm wearing a wet napkin as Frost DK and Ret but as Havoc, I feel like an unkillable god. With Meta and leech talent I can tank no problem as Havoc. Try tanking even for 2 seconds as dps DK.

The real issue with why DH and Rogue are so ridiculously strong is that they have no weakness while many specs have no strengths. What is a Frost DK strength? Frost DK used to have very strong defenses such as AMS (pre-gutted version), Blood Presence (that greatly increased Death strike healing, armor and HPs). Everything has been taken from Frost DK. I honestly have no idea what goes through the Devs minds if it isn't straight up class bias (nothing else makes sense). Why would they gut AMS, while leaving Rogues with a 2 min CD magic immunity?

I wouldnt say they have no weakness, but you bring up a great point that I was trying to make earlier... It is not that Rogue and DH are overpowered and need to change... its that other classes need to be buffed to also feel good when they play.

Assassin Rogue and DH are listed as some of the most "fun" specs right now to play. Not due to their dps output or whatnot but the fact that they FEEL like a full spec. They have many abilities and many defensives like you stated.

Blizz needs to now focus on reworking other classes one by one if need be, to start making them feel fun first and foremost, and then buff or nerf them numbers wise after their core class abilities are set. No nerfs needed to DH/Rogue, buff other specs to be just as competitive.

If they buff everyone else to rogue and DH levels their design philosophy of specs having strengths and weaknesses falls completely flat. Because rogue and DH don't have any particular weakness like everyone else does.
Also if you buff everyone to their level the current content is gonna become a total joke because everyone is gonna much stronger than they are supposed to be.

Imo. both needs to happen, certain classes need to be brought down a little while others need to be brought up.
The problem with nerfs is that the reason people are not enjoying bfa is because their class sucks. Nerf all classes down and suddenly all classes suck and no one is having fun.

Buffs for everyone. Then buff the content if need be. Let people do cool things. Not doing cool things isn't fun.

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