Improving Leveling

General Discussion
So I was thinking long and hard what was missing from leveling and the answer I concluded with is that every level needs to feel exciting and makes you grow in power. Naturally I looked back at the old talent trees from Vanilla to Wrath and there were things I liked. You had player choice whether that was good or bad in the end it was there at least. Also even if you were not getting a new skill or something, at least you got a point which you could spend on something that just made you better in some way. Also the old talent trees gave you a preview of what cool things awaited you if you chose to dedicate yourself down that path.

So what I think was good from the old talent trees:
1. player choice in that you got to pick how to improve your character
2. a reward every level even if it was a small improvement made you feel it was worth your time to hit the next level.
3. previewing cooler more powerful talents at the end of the trees you can work towards.

Old Talent Trees and what they do wrong
1. if you spent a point in the wrong talent it was expensive to correct that mistake
2. if you spent into a hybrid talent build then you didn't get the more powerful abilities at the end. cost of doing this
3. the variation of talent builds at endgame were pretty locked into 1-2 right builds and everything else is subpar.

New Talent trees and what they do good
1. variety of choice in what talent to choose from utility wise
2. able to switch talents relatively easier than the old talent tree
3. still able to preview more powerful talents down the tree.
4. some talents are situational so depending on the fight you could visit the talent tree and choose a more appropriate build. even if it is only changing a talent or 3.

New Talent trees and what they do wrong
1. talents are not every level because they are more powerful than minor stat or ability increases

Here is what I propose:
1. Have a separate talent tree for each version of WoW while still keeping the current version of the talent tree. A sub talent tree for each expansion as it were.
2. Have it as a system exclusive for leveling up and doesn't touch the endgame.
3. Every level give us a talent point to spend on making that version of WoW more fun and easier
4. Once you have reach the level cap of that content then new content awaits you to gain cool effects in the new areas
5. Like the current talent tree, allow us to reset talent points in a rested area or something.
6. Each version of the sub talent tree's choices is flavored for that content: Classic zones level 1-60 you get a talent choice of improved beast, humanoid, or dragon slaying by 10% per point (up to a max of 100%). Where as the same talent in Burning Crusade could give you improved Demonslaying or in Wrath it could give you improved Undead Slaying (Not pitching this as what the talents should actually be but more pitching it as more different flavor of talents between content).
7. Leveling from 1-60, you get 1 talent point per level to spend in Classic talents. Leveling from 60-80, you get 1 talent point per level to either spend in Burning Crusade or Wrath of the Lich King talents. Leveling from 80-90, you get 2 talent points per level to spend on either Cataclysm or Mists of Pandaria talents. Leveling 90-100, you get 2 talent points per level to spend on Warlords of Draenor talents. Leveling from 100-110, you get 2 talent points per level to spend on Legion talents. Leveling from 110-120, you get 2 talent points per level to spend on Battle for Azeroth talents.

Upsides:
1. As soon as you leave that zone/expansion content, the buffs you gain from that talent tree drop off.
2. The system is expandable and can be added for every expansion going forward.
3. It gives player choice which feels good for players
4. Revisiting older content still gives you those buffs and since they are customizable you can revisit the tree and redo the talents according to what you are doing in that content.
5. It is separate from the current talent tree and ability inflation doesn't have to occur over time.
6. It could potentially be used to add interesting abilities exclusive for that content to change up how you play without carrying forward.
7. It gives you something cool to look forward to every level.
but....but i thought a small amount of players wanted harder leveling.....thats what blizzard said...lmao.
11/11/2018 11:37 AMPosted by Kelgar
but....but i thought a small amount of players wanted harder leveling.....thats what blizzard said...lmao.


When you gain power through a system like this, you can make monsters slightly harder in that expansion to naturally emphasize picking talents to increase your effectiveness. Of course you want to feel more powerful in the end so having your power curve ramp up higher than the monster difficulty is important.

Also if you don't pick a talent that makes killing easier, than you effectively activate hardmode for monsters until you get decent gear. Its a win win for players that want to overpower over time and players that want monsters to be harder.
They won't do that, because they don't want anyone to feel progression, at least not until they reach max and gear up in heroic or better gear.

I think leveling would be better if you could always feel equally strong, not equally weak.

11/11/2018 11:37 AMPosted by Kelgar
but....but i thought a small amount of players wanted harder leveling.....thats what blizzard said...lmao.

Yeah, they said that the reason we don't have lots of new players is because new players want all hard all the time. LMAO.
11/11/2018 11:54 AMPosted by Spellchaser
They won't do that, because they don't want anyone to feel progression, at least not until they reach max and gear up in heroic or better gear. I think leveling would be better if you could always feel equally strong, not equally weak.


People have different opinions on what feels good when it comes to leveling. Some want to struggle and some want to feel powerful. Having a sub talent tree just makes sense to give players the option to basically tailor their experience leveling up.
I really liked your ideas and hope Blizzard try something like this.
While I really like the idea of a sub talent tree that works similar to old talent trees, I really dislike the idea of multiple talent trees based on expansion. In fact I would consider it a major downside rather than an upside.
Scaling.
If you haven't learned to accept it by now then it's going to be a rough road ahead.
11/11/2018 12:18 PMPosted by Æschere
While I really like the idea of a sub talent tree that works similar to old talent trees, I really dislike the idea of multiple talent trees based on expansion. In fact I would consider it a major downside rather than an upside.


The reason I stated they should be separate is because of the inherit nature of power progression and having 1 tree would increase power exponentially more worse than what endgame gear already does. Having a multiple trees depending on content allows a reset of power progression in the outdoor zones but since your gear is still really good at the end of the expansion, your still killing monsters faster than someone that just freshly hit max level a week before the new expansion and has to scramble for gear so they can do a little more damage starting in on the new expansion. Since Blizzard always throws high level gear at you at the end of the expansion to make the first few levels feel ok, this shouldn't effect gameplay significantly.
11/11/2018 12:22 PMPosted by Righteous
Scaling.
If you haven't learned to accept it by now then it's going to be a rough road ahead.


Not saying scaling shouldn't be a thing. I think this could work side by side with it. This would just offset it slightly for max players to feel more powerful if we choose or less powerful to give a little more meat to fighting monsters if that's what the player wants. All depending on what the player spends their talent points on will determine that.
11/11/2018 12:29 PMPosted by Realmweaver
The reason I stated they should be separate is because of the inherit nature of power progression and having 1 tree would increase power exponentially more worse than what endgame gear already does.


I'm afraid you're going to have to go into more detail here. I'm not really sure why a unified leveling tree necessitates power creep.

Of course I'm also envisioning a world where someone hits level 60, heads to Northrend and goes "I lost the 1-60 talent tree, I'm so much weaker, this sucks." And stops playing. Especially if there are actual unique and cool abilities in the trees.
11/11/2018 12:32 PMPosted by Realmweaver
Not saying scaling shouldn't be a thing. I think this could work side by side with it. This would just offset it slightly for max players to feel more powerful if we choose or less powerful to give a little more meat to fighting monsters if that's what the player wants. All depending on what the player spends their talent points on will determine that.


Your ideas would probably be well received by the players, but you're talking about a LOT of changes needing to be added. From the development side it would require additional balancing added to a game that is, at any given time, in some state of unbalance.
11/11/2018 12:36 PMPosted by Æschere
Of course I'm also envisioning a world where someone hits level 60, heads to Northrend and goes "I lost the 1-60 talent tree, I'm so much weaker, this sucks." And stops playing. Especially if there are actual unique and cool abilities in the trees.


That 1-60 talent tree would still be there but would be inactive for Outland/Northrend going forward. That players can still go back to those areas and feel those benefits.

What you call getting weaker all of a sudden, I call a reality check. Suddenly coming up against a enemy that hits harder and/or doesn't die in 1 shot actually engages the player from time to time. A couple levels in and adding points into the tree will make it easier but I am thinking maybe the first 2-3 levels of a new expansion tree, you are putting points into killing monsters faster. At that point they behave as the same difficulty as on the Live version. After that the next 7-8 points could be spent on something else in the tree or you could dump more into killing faster. I imagine they should cap it around 7 points or so in the tree so the creep isn't insane and allows players to choose other talents in the tree as well. If I could use a graph to show you I would be able to better explain the power curve but I cant.

If a player choses to not talent into killing faster, the monsters shouldn't be so hard as to be unkillable solo. Think classic demo and the difficulty of the mobs there. You could pull 1 enemy sure. If you pulled 2 you were dead meat. What I am thinking is that with no talents into killing faster, you can pull 2 enemies but not 3. If you don't like it then you can always spend a point to pull 3 enemies and not 4. So on and so forth.

As far as abilities, I am thinking that these abilities would be a separate perk and not something someone is required to have. In the same vein they shouldn't feel useless but a class shouldn't be balanced around them. Also the ability could essentially be the same in all trees but the newest tree could be an upgraded version or something that does the same thing (helps you kill outdoor world monsters) but approaches it in a more interesting way. As far as the ability going into dungeons/raids/pvp, it should be disabled. The tree abilities should only help you with outdoor world content and nothing else.

Join the Conversation

Return to Forum