Conflicted, to support Sylvanas in 8.1?

Story Forum
In the upcoming patch, 8.1, I'm not sure what to do about Sylvanas, and I'm sharing it here for reflection.

I've played all 14 years of WoW and most of it on Alliance, but I switched to Horde for the first time in earnest after I saw the video where Sylvanas and Lordaeron were attacked. In the context of that video her words spoke to me when she observed we've forgotten what it means to be strong. I felt ashamed at the war monger Greymane and the insecure boy-king. unjustly marching on the dark lady (my dwarf has had a crush on her since forever).

I changed sides.

I parked my Alliance characters and leveled a Highmountain Tauren. Then I learned Teldrassil was burned by the Horde, and I felt they must have a good reason, or maybe there was an azerite-like accident. When I played the initial scenario for BFA I chose not to spray Horde soldiers as I was also Horde. I saw the full video where Sylvanas tweaks out and decides to try and crush the hopes of the Night Elves by burning the tree down in addition to cutting off their seafaring logistics. And I empathized with Saurfang, always have ever since raiding ICC and fighting his son.

Soon I have a difficult choice to make. I must choose which version of the Horde I want to see. And that's the problem, I want Saurfang's vision of the Horde under Sylvanas' leadership.

She has always been the one to make somewhat subtle moves, a chess player rather than a battering ram. Her boldness with the Warchief title does fit. I've heard what she's done in books and I realize my perspective on what defines her is not reflected in all of her actions.

I truly don't know who to back. I want redemption for Sylvanas but being asked to vote before I'm sure she can be redeemed makes me worry that choosing to support her will be siding with her moral values which I also cannot do.
You'll never get Saurfang's Horde under Sylvanas. She doesn't care about honor or morality and will do absolutely anything if it means she wins the battle.

That includes testing the Blight on kidnapped tauren in her laboratories deep under Lordaeron. That includes bombing Southshore with so much bile that the land won't be habitable by even the dead for a century or more. That includes burning an entire kingdom with a capital city and multiple villages full of non-combatant civilians and children to the ground.

I also doubt she will ever change. You need to acknowledge that what you are doing is wrong for you to even have the desire to change, and that is something Sylvanas inherently lacks. Sylvanas doesn't think she is in the wrong to do the things she is doing. She thinks everyone else is wrong for not thinking the way she does.
11/11/2018 05:03 PMPosted by Kisin
You'll never get Saurfang's Horde under Sylvanas. She doesn't care about honor or morality and will do absolutely anything if it means she wins the battle.

That includes testing the Blight on kidnapped tauren in her laboratories deep under Lordaeron. That includes bombing Southshore with so much bile that the land won't be habitable by even the dead for a century or more. That includes burning an entire kingdom with a capital city and multiple villages full of non-combatant civilians and children to the ground.

I also doubt she will ever change. You need to acknowledge that what you are doing is wrong for you to even have the desire to change, and that is something Sylvanas inherently lacks. Sylvanas doesn't think she is in the wrong to do the things she is doing. She thinks everyone else is wrong for not thinking the way she does.


To add a counter-point, their is no reason to believe the horde will stop being villains after we revolt again to remove an evil warchief again. Saurfang could become evil, he could slip and die putting Gallywix as the warchief, etc.

I don't see how killing Sylvanas will fix anything or put anything on the right track, when the writers are going out of their way to put us off tracks repeatedly since we last did this.

I support sylvanas because I don't want her to die a villain, I do not want her character to continue being butchered and destroyed, and because I want the forsaken race to not have a complete random 180 and lose their themes to even justify their existence in Saurfang's horde.

Going through with another rebellion will most likely completely destroy the forsaken's concepts, themes, and characters, and leave them a husk like what happened with groups like the Orcs. I don't want that, and intend to stubbornly oppose it for as long as I can.
11/11/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Verlius

To add a counter-point, their is no reason to believe the horde will stop being villains after we revolt again to remove an evil warchief again. Saurfang could become evil, he could slip and die putting Gallywix as the warchief, etc.

I don't see how killing Sylvanas will fix anything or put anything on the right track, when the writers are going out of their way to put us off tracks repeatedly since we last did this.


That is irrelevant to what the OP is asking though. You're voting for a meta reason based on your belief that Blizzard will always make the Horde villains. The OP is asking if we could ever have Saurfang's Horde under Sylvanas, and the answer based on all evidence is no. Sylvanas does not want to be redeemed, and choosing her side isn't likely to change her long held perspective.

I am not trying to dismiss your view as invalid, mind. I can understand your reasoning even if I disagree with it. It just isn't answering what the OP is asking.

As for your specific meta reasoning though, voting for Sylvanas is a vote that tells Blizzard we Horde players WANT to keep being the villains. Voting for Saurfang may not change anything in the long term, but voting Sylvanas is sending the message that we like the way things are now.
I think a fundamental part of looking at Sylvanas's idealized redemption is that Sylvanas possibly can't be redeemed because she neither feels remorse for her actions nor does she intend to stop. She committed one genocide already, and her ultimate goal is to commit a second one. Sylvanas will never hold Saurfang's ideals.

Basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want Saurfang's Horde, join Saurfang. You want Sylvanas's leadership, join Sylvanas. You have to decide what you value more.
11/11/2018 05:28 PMPosted by Kisin
11/11/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Verlius

To add a counter-point, their is no reason to believe the horde will stop being villains after we revolt again to remove an evil warchief again. Saurfang could become evil, he could slip and die putting Gallywix as the warchief, etc.

I don't see how killing Sylvanas will fix anything or put anything on the right track, when the writers are going out of their way to put us off tracks repeatedly since we last did this.


That is irrelevant to what the OP is asking though. You're voting for a meta reason based on your belief that Blizzard will always make the Horde villains. The OP is asking if we could ever have Saurfang's Horde under Sylvanas, and the answer based on all evidence is no. Sylvanas does not want to be redeemed, and choosing her side isn't likely to change her long held perspective.

I am not trying to dismiss your view as invalid, mind. I can understand your reasoning even if I disagree with it. It just isn't answering what the OP is asking.

As for your specific meta reasoning though, voting for Sylvanas is a vote that tells Blizzard we Horde players WANT to keep being the villains. Voting for Saurfang may not change anything in the long term, but voting Sylvanas is sending the message that we like the way things are now.


I apologize if i misinterpreted OP, i didnt mean to.

I disagree with the idea that picking Sylvanas means Evil Horde and Saurfang means Honor horde. there are many other aspects at play in this choice. Picking Sylvanas could mean you want her redeemed, picking saurfang could mean you want her killed, for instance.

Also, the Honor Horde is not going to be destroyed. It is the primary identity of the Horde that blizzard has cultivated, even if Sylvanas stays warchief they are not going to throw away the primary tenets of the main horde race. I don't even see how that could be considered a possibility.

In my opinion, however, it is much more likely that the forsaken and other races that don't fit the honor-horde mindset will be altered and butchered until they fit it, if it is decided the whole horde must be honored focused.

I apologize if I am coming across as argumentative, but I get frutstrated at people consistently wanting the themes of the forsaken to be thrown away because Blizzard decided to make Sylvanas warchief, and than amp up her evil.
That this is even up for debate disturbs me. Any redeeming qualities Sylvanas had died after Wrath.
11/11/2018 05:32 PMPosted by Grandblade
I think a fundamental part of looking at Sylvanas's idealized redemption is that Sylvanas possibly can't be redeemed because she neither feels remorse for her actions nor does she intend to stop. She committed one genocide already, and her ultimate goal is to commit a second one. Sylvanas will never hold Saurfang's ideals.

Basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want Saurfang's Horde, join Saurfang. You want Sylvanas's leadership, join Sylvanas. You have to decide what you value more.


The problem is both have been written horribly, and in my opinion both of them need redemption, and both of them dont believe that they do. If that is the case, and both options seem full of flaws, who do you vote for?

And to the OP: we have no idea what they plan to do, or if who we pick even matters. Sylvanas might be redeemed or killed regardless, so just pick whichever you believe is more in character for you, imo.
After the latest interview and them essentially confirming they want to try and make us hate her, i'm basically digging my heels in as a matter of principle. I have a particular view of how wars are carried out, and whether that view is vindicated by the story is irrelevant compared to the importance of making that stand to begin with.

Victrix causa deis placuit sed Victa Catoni
11/11/2018 05:32 PMPosted by Grandblade
I think a fundamental part of looking at Sylvanas's idealized redemption is that Sylvanas possibly can't be redeemed because she neither feels remorse for her actions nor does she intend to stop. She committed one genocide already, and her ultimate goal is to commit a second one. Sylvanas will never hold Saurfang's ideals.

Basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want Saurfang's Horde, join Saurfang. You want Sylvanas's leadership, join Sylvanas. You have to decide what you value more.


F...faction pride everybody...
11/11/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Darethy
After the latest interview and them essentially confirming they want to try and make us hate her, i'm basically digging my heels in as a matter of principle. I have a particular view of how wars are carried out, and whether that view is vindicated by the story is irrelevant compared to the importance of making that stand to begin with.

Victrix causa deis placuit sed Victa Catoni

Dunno what that last part means, but yeah basically. At this point Blizzard is gonna have to drag me kicking and screaming towards the river of Hating Sylvanas. Spite fuels me.
11/11/2018 05:36 PMPosted by Verlius

I apologize if i misinterpreted OP, i didnt mean to.

I disagree with the idea that picking Sylvanas means Evil Horde and Saurfang means Honor horde. there are many other aspects at play in this choice. Picking Sylvanas could mean you want her redeemed, picking saurfang could mean you want her killed, for instance.


There are many reasons one might pick Sylvanas. Sheer spite toward the story direction seems common. But you need to think of how these votes, without context of the person behind them, mean to Blizzard.

Siding with Sylvanas, to them, means you're on board with what she has brought to the table so far. Choosing Sylvanas, from the perspective of Blizzard, means that you're okay with Teldrassil and that Derek's situation seems fine. Or at the very least that you are enjoying what they are doing with her so far.

11/11/2018 05:36 PMPosted by Verlius
Also, the Honor Horde is not going to be destroyed. It is the primary identity of the Horde that blizzard has cultivated, even if Sylvanas stays warchief they are not going to throw away the primary tenets of the main horde race. I don't even see how that could be considered a possibility.


I don't know about this. I think that if Blizzard sees a massive amount of support for Sylvanas' actions they may start gearing the Horde more toward her faux pragmatism in response. Give the players what they voted for, in other words. I could be wrong, but I very much don't want to test the theory.

11/11/2018 05:36 PMPosted by Verlius
In my opinion, however, it is much more likely that the forsaken and other races that don't fit the honor-horde mindset will be altered and butchered until they fit it, if it is decided the whole horde must be honored focused.

I apologize if I am coming across as argumentative, but I get frutstrated at people consistently wanting the themes of the forsaken to be thrown away because Blizzard decided to make Sylvanas warchief, and than amp up her evil.


I definitely understand your concerns. I've never been a Forsaken fan myself, but I've never really resented their position in the Horde as they were always far enough removed that I didn't really HAVE to do their quests unless I wanted to, and they brought some interesting conflicts to the Horde story.

The issue with Warchief Sylvanas is that she's running the Horde like she does the Forsaken. The Forsaken themes have completely suffocated the Kalimdor Horde themes this expansion, to the point that many don't even feel like they are playing Horde anymore.
What's hilarious Kisin is I actually feel the opposite, though your opinion is equally valid. Most Forsaken stuff happens in the very slow to grind honorbound rep, the occasional atrocity when it does happen, happens at the behest of the Horde as a whole not as part of the Forsaken. A few NPCs scattered here and there don't change that, and i'v always had a low view of old Horde values to begin with so Darnassus doesn't even feel like a Forsaken act in particular.

Maybe it would of been different if we dumped blight on the place rather then flaming rocks, but by and large i'v not heard anything from my people, only my leader. Darkshore is the first time I have gotten to see what the FORSAKEN are up to, rather then just felt like a cog in the Horde warmachine divorced from my culture.
I understand where you are coming from, Kisin, and I apologize if I came across as over the top, my salt levels seem to be high today.

To be completely honest, don't we have no idea if they are even viewing our choices as a vote? For all we know they already have a chosen destination in mind, and this choice is just for flavor.

And I would also add that not many forsaken fans ever wanted sylvanas to be warchief, and this isnt even the traditional forsaken themes. This isnt what the vast majority of the forsaken fans would want. What is dominating the horde is this weird, mutated version of the forsaken to turn them into the scourge jr. of this storyline.

The fact that our time in the spotlight involves us turning into a mirror of our most hated enemy, never realizing this, and then probably being destroyed as villains is not enjoyable, and I desire to oppose this direction.
11/11/2018 05:55 PMPosted by Darethy
What's hilarious Kisin is I actually feel the opposite, though your opinion is equally valid. Most Forsaken stuff happens in the very slow to grind honorbound rep, the occasional atrocity when it does happen, happens at the behest of the Horde as a whole not as part of the Forsaken. A few NPCs scattered here and there don't change that, and i'v always had a low view of old Horde values to begin with so Darnassus doesn't even feel like a Forsaken act in particular.


True, but the Honorbound rep is most of the Horde content this expansion. Our leveling experience beyond that is the Zandalar story, which has some thematic similarities to the Kalimdor Horde isn't quite the same.

In our war effort I am taking orders from Sylvanas' lackey, going around grave robbing, and helping undead cope with their undeath status.

I dunno. I just haven't felt very much like a troll whenever the Horde story rolls around. If it weren't for Zandalar I'd feel very much out of place in my own faction's story.

11/11/2018 05:55 PMPosted by Darethy
Maybe it would of been different if we dumped blight on the place rather then flaming rocks, but by and large i'v not heard anything from my people, only my leader. Darkshore is the first time I have gotten to see what the FORSAKEN are up to, rather then just felt like a cog in the Horde warmachine divorced from my culture.


I can understand that, though at least you got some good Forsaken characterization with Zelling and Stone. I am pretty salty about being forced to do that to Stone, but Zelling showed a side of the Forsaken I can actually enjoy.

11/11/2018 05:55 PMPosted by Verlius
I understand where you are coming from, Kisin, and I apologize if I came across as over the top, my salt levels seem to be high today.


You're fine. I'm not reading any hostility from you.

11/11/2018 05:55 PMPosted by Verlius
To be completely honest, don't we have no idea if they are even viewing our choices as a vote? For all we know they already have a chosen destination in mind, and this choice is just for flavor.


True. I don't believe Blizzard is looking at this choice like a vote. My position is that if it is a vote, then voting Sylvanas is more likely to be telling Blizzard you're okay with what Sylvanas is doing than the opposite.

11/11/2018 05:55 PMPosted by Verlius
And I would also add that not many forsaken fans ever wanted sylvanas to be warchief, and this isnt even the traditional forsaken themes. This isnt what the vast majority of the forsaken fans would want. What is dominating the horde is this weird, mutated version of the forsaken to turn them into the scourge jr. of this storyline.

The fact that our time in the spotlight involves us turning into a mirror of our most hated enemy, never realizing this, and then probably being destroyed as villains is not enjoyable, and I desire to oppose this direction.


I can definitely understand that. At the very least Blizzard is starting to show other Forsaken second guessing Sylvanas after Derek, so when she goes down she won't be dragging the entire Forsaken with her.

More than likely it will be another Garrosh moment where only a minority of dedicated Forsaken stay by her side and the rest stand beside their brothers and sisters in the Horde.
11/11/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Darethy
After the latest interview and them essentially confirming they want to try and make us hate her, i'm basically digging my heels in as a matter of principle. I have a particular view of how wars are carried out, and whether that view is vindicated by the story is irrelevant compared to the importance of making that stand to begin with.

Victrix causa deis placuit sed Victa Catoni
Vae victis.
11/11/2018 05:37 PMPosted by Bargrand
That this is even up for debate disturbs me. Any redeeming qualities Sylvanas had died after Wrath.


You could say the same for the heroic "honor Horde" as well - that went out the window with all the writing involving Garrosh, Baine, and other Horde leadership. Choosing Saurfang won't bring it back, since everything he's doing now will always be framed in the light of doing it alongside Anduin. Since Horde honor was always supposed to be separate from Alliance themes, this option is now effectively a dead end.

Truthfully, I can't think of a time when the Honor Horde ever really took center stage for anything. Most of the overarching Vanilla and Wrath storylines were Alliance-themed, with Horde just being tacked on. TBC's story was never really explained well for anyone. Cata had Thrall leaving the Horde; we all konw how MoP went; WoD might have worked, but they cut the expansion short; and Legion technically wasn't a faction expansion (except for all of the guest appearances by Alliance leaders).

EDIT: If it is supposed to be a vote, it's either Sylvanas or hamburger vacation for me. It's basically a choice between saying 100% of what Sylvanas is doing is fine, 100% of what Saurfang and Anduin are doing is fine, or everything's a dumpster fire.
11/11/2018 06:11 PMPosted by Treng
11/11/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Darethy
After the latest interview and them essentially confirming they want to try and make us hate her, i'm basically digging my heels in as a matter of principle. I have a particular view of how wars are carried out, and whether that view is vindicated by the story is irrelevant compared to the importance of making that stand to begin with.

Victrix causa deis placuit sed Victa Catoni
Vae victis.
Hakuna Matata.
11/11/2018 06:11 PMPosted by Treng
11/11/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Darethy
After the latest interview and them essentially confirming they want to try and make us hate her, i'm basically digging my heels in as a matter of principle. I have a particular view of how wars are carried out, and whether that view is vindicated by the story is irrelevant compared to the importance of making that stand to begin with.

Victrix causa deis placuit sed Victa Catoni
Vae victis.


Whether given a choice, to follow the story of a weak and unfulfilling Saurfang plot; or to challenge the fates for another throw, a better throw, against ones destiny. What is a player to do? But does one truly have a choice? one can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate and defy the tyrannous creative development team.
11/11/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Verlius
To add a counter-point, their is no reason to believe the horde will stop being villains after we revolt again to remove an evil warchief again. Saurfang could become evil, he could slip and die putting Gallywix as the warchief, etc.


That's the entire premise of the current story team. To push Horde players into being okay with Stupid Evil, and to push the Alliance into being Stupid Good.

All so that they can repeat the same story ad nausem for years to come.
11/11/2018 06:23 PMPosted by Darethy
11/11/2018 06:11 PMPosted by Treng
...Vae victis.


Whether given a choice, to follow the story of a weak and unfulfilling Saurfang plot; or to challenge the fates for another throw, a better throw, against ones destiny. What is a player to do? But does one truly have a choice? one can only match, move by move, the machinations of fate and defy the tyrannous creative development team.


Now at last the masks have fallen away, the strings of the puppets have become visible, and hands of Sylvanas exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift Saurfang had given me: more powerful than the dagger that now held Sylvanas's soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me; the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion...

hope.

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