Conflicted, to support Sylvanas in 8.1?

Story Forum
11/11/2018 06:30 PMPosted by Anyaceltica
11/11/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Verlius
To add a counter-point, their is no reason to believe the horde will stop being villains after we revolt again to remove an evil warchief again. Saurfang could become evil, he could slip and die putting Gallywix as the warchief, etc.


That's the entire premise of the current story team. To push Horde players into being okay with Stupid Evil, and to push the Alliance into being Stupid Good.

All so that they can repeat the same story ad nausem for years to come.


This is not true at all with just like Garrosh, they paint Sylvanas' actions as damaging. The writing teams makes it perfectly clear that people are not okay with Sylvanas' actions.
Gentle reminder: TBC Garrosh was 100% okay with letting Broken raiders kill his clan because "Daddy was evil, abloobloo." He has had exactly two quests where he was a good guy and every other time he was at best pitiful and at worst a racist sadist mass murdering son of a gun.
11/11/2018 06:40 PMPosted by Treng

Now at last the masks have fallen away, the strings of the puppets have become visible, and hands of Sylvanas exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift Saurfang had given me: more powerful than the dagger that now held Sylvanas's soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me; the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion...

hope.


How strange to revisit WC3, played long before I first entered the character creation screen, a decade before the historical revisionism of Orc honor set in and would poison the narrative of the loyalist path I still followed. In the future, these cutscenes would be condemned to Chronicles rewrites, the warping of character perceptions would cause the collapse of the older RTS narrative and build a 'right' horde identity over its ruins. Was it possible with enough outcry, enough support, we might see a more fulfilling narrative restored? that the pillars of two identities would be pure once more? My answer, according to Cdev, lie somewhere away from Saurfangs quest chain. I could restore the Horde perhaps, but I could never give Azeroth back it's innocence.
11/11/2018 06:54 PMPosted by Darethy
11/11/2018 06:40 PMPosted by Treng

Now at last the masks have fallen away, the strings of the puppets have become visible, and hands of Sylvanas exposed. Most ironic of all was the last gift Saurfang had given me: more powerful than the dagger that now held Sylvanas's soul, more acute even than the vision his sacrifice had accorded me; the first bitter taste of that terrible illusion...

hope.


How strange to revisit WC3, played long before I first entered the character creation screen, a decade before the historical revisionism of Orc honor set in and would poison the narrative of the loyalist path I still followed. In the future, these cutscenes would be condemned to Chronicles rewrites, the warping of character perceptions would cause the collapse of the older RTS narrative and build a 'right' horde identity over its ruins. Was it possible with enough outcry, enough support, we might see a more fulfilling narrative restored? that the pillars of two identities would be pure once more? My answer, according to Cdev, lie somewhere away from Saurfangs quest chain. I could restore the Horde perhaps, but I could never give Azeroth back it's innocence.


Darethy... What was it you said to me in that fateful moment when she took from me the Horde? How would Saurfang's rule differ from Sylvanas's? If you had lived, Darethy, you would have learned the difference. You should have trusted me. The war was over, and yet there was another battle to be fought. The cruel masters of Lordaeron, the Forsaken - now leaderless - still had to be put down. There were cities to be rebuilt, and order to be restored. And the old rule, Horde rule, would then return.

To the victor go the spoils. At last, Azeroth would be ours.
I felt ashamed at the war monger Greymane and the insecure boy-king. unjustly marching on the dark lady
Warmongering Greymane? She brought the war to HIM. Heck, it’s actually because of her that he even joined the Alliance. If she didn’t destroy his kingdom and kill his son, he would have had the wall fixed and been perfectly content to sit in isolation with Crowley and the rebels remaining imprisoned.

Insecure boy-king? Anduin is probably the most secure he’s ever been now. He’s been getting development since cataclysm and he’s grown up a ton.

Heck, why did u pick alliance in the first place if you like Sylv so much?

I want Saurfang's vision of the Horde under Sylvanas' leadership.
Mixing oil with water, not happening.

Her boldness with the Warchief title does fit.
No it doesn’t, her ‘boldness’ is why we’re in an open war that could have easily been won.

I truly don't know who to back. I want redemption for Sylvanas but being asked to vote before I'm sure she can be redeemed makes me worry that choosing to support her will be siding with her moral values which I also cannot do.
Yeah, it IS a pretty hard decision. Your fandom or your morality. Can’t pick both, unfortunately.
11/11/2018 07:24 PMPosted by Treng


Darethy... What was it you said to me in that fateful moment when she took from me the Horde? How would Saurfang's rule differ from Sylvanas's? If you had lived, Darethy, you would have learned the difference. You should have trusted me. The war was over, and yet there was another battle to be fought. The cruel masters of Lordaeron, the Forsaken - now leaderless - still had to be put down. There were cities to be rebuilt, and order to be restored. And the old rule, Horde rule, would then return.

To the victor go the spoils. At last, Azeroth would be ours.


I wonder, Saurfang. Are you here truly to save my Horde? or are you simply here when i'm tormented by the internal conflicts of faction identity? I suspect you found me merely convenient, dropped into your scenario by the whims of Cdev. Indestructible for some reason, a durable and gullible tool to manipulate. This one thing I readily admit: I have been used by others time and again, but always I seem to stray from their path. What is it about me, orc, that makes me such an unreliable instrument? Why do I survive one trial after another, on and on, in an endless succession of humiliating deaths and resurrections? It seems there is much more to my destiny and my history than I know – perhaps more than you know, as well.
To me at least, the Sylvanas option is an easy no because of the meta knowledge we got at Blizzcon that heavily leans towards her having a major evil plan involving the destruction of the Horde as well. Even if you want to play the evil empire which is 100% pragmatic (which is fun on occasion) how can you support someone who wants to kill you no matter how much you support using Derek to kill the Proudmoores?

Personally, it wouldn’t surprise me if the “do nothing” option is canon since we are supposed to be saving the world, not taking part in the conflict.
11/11/2018 05:39 PMPosted by Darethy


Victrix causa deis placuit sed Victa Catoni


The irony of this, is that Cato is seen as the more reasonable, perhaps moral choice. Sylvanas is certainly not that.

For those wondering, it translates to, roughly, "The gods favored the victor, the vanquished, by Cato", which we could write more clearly as "Though the gods favored the victorious side, Cato favored the vanquished side."

It is a phrase used to accept the reality that one's side is defeated, but claim some sort of high ground.

I... wouldn't apply that to Sylvanas.

To further the irony, we have Treng responding with "Vae Victis", literally "Woe to the Vanquished". Which does have a certain validity to the first bit, except that, at the current point in lore, it applies more to Saurfang.

I'd write it differently, honestly.

"Vitrix causa Sylvanas, placuit sed Victa Elune."

"Though Sylvanas favored the victorious side, the vanquished are favored by Elune."

Sums up the War of the Thorns nicely.
The problem is Zamari, the assumption is that this is being applied to Sylvanas, rather then the highground of refusing to play into Blizzards forced faction strife to turn against her.
11/11/2018 05:32 PMPosted by Grandblade
I think a fundamental part of looking at Sylvanas's idealized redemption is that Sylvanas possibly can't be redeemed because she neither feels remorse for her actions nor does she intend to stop. She committed one genocide already, and her ultimate goal is to commit a second one. Sylvanas will never hold Saurfang's ideals.

Basically, you can't have your cake and eat it too. You want Saurfang's Horde, join Saurfang. You want Sylvanas's leadership, join Sylvanas. You have to decide what you value more.


And most importantly, if you're Alliance (especially if you're a Night Elf player), go kill yourself, because you don't matter, and you have no place in this story.
11/11/2018 07:45 PMPosted by Pyrogar
Your fandom or your morality.


Bruh, this is literally just two fandoms, one edgier than the other. It's not that serious, chill. Nobody's decisions ingame should reflect on them IRL. You're just muddying the waters with hyperbole like this.
11/11/2018 05:28 PMPosted by Kisin
You're voting for a meta reason based on your belief that Blizzard will always make the Horde villains.


I just wanted to break this out and highlight it a bit, because I believe it's indicative of where the problems with the story are starting to emerge. That is to say, people ARE starting to vote for meta reasons rather than story reasons - and the reason people do this, I think, is because the story is so forced right now that it is breaking the immersion of more people who care about the lore. Once you have broken people out of their immersion, their reactions are going to be tainted with bitterness. I know I have stopped thinking "Sylvanas has gone too far and must be stopped!" and am now thinking "Why are you hamfistedly trying to make me hate Sylvanas so much?"

Incidentally, I know you have framed the choice as "support for Sylvanas' methods/support for Saurfang's ideal" but I have been viewing the choice as "oppose Horde civil war/support Horde civil war". I think you have to take into account the people who feel that way as well - and, if Not My Table actually does make it to live, how much support the "This is dumb I quit" option is getting.
11/11/2018 09:13 PMPosted by Vozul
Nobody's decisions ingame should reflect on them IRL.
11/11/2018 08:17 PMPosted by Zamari
To further the irony, we have Treng responding with "Vae Victis", literally "Woe to the Vanquished". Which does have a certain validity to the first bit, except that, at the current point in lore, it applies more to Saurfang.

https://youtu.be/bMIHjCmFeNk?t=470
11/11/2018 09:38 PMPosted by Treng
11/11/2018 08:17 PMPosted by Zamari
To further the irony, we have Treng responding with "Vae Victis", literally "Woe to the Vanquished". Which does have a certain validity to the first bit, except that, at the current point in lore, it applies more to Saurfang.

https://youtu.be/bMIHjCmFeNk?t=470
Treng, stop showing me cool things I wanna look into more, I'm already knees deep in Overlord.
11/11/2018 09:17 PMPosted by Jellex
11/11/2018 05:28 PMPosted by Kisin
You're voting for a meta reason based on your belief that Blizzard will always make the Horde villains.


I just wanted to break this out and highlight it a bit, because I believe it's indicative of where the problems with the story are starting to emerge. That is to say, people ARE starting to vote for meta reasons rather than story reasons - and the reason people do this, I think, is because the story is so forced right now that it is breaking the immersion of more people who care about the lore. Once you have broken people out of their immersion, their reactions are going to be tainted with bitterness. I know I have stopped thinking "Sylvanas has gone too far and must be stopped!" and am now thinking "Why are you hamfistedly trying to make me hate Sylvanas so much?"

Incidentally, I know you have framed the choice as "support for Sylvanas' methods/support for Saurfang's ideal" but I have been viewing the choice as "oppose Horde civil war/support Horde civil war". I think you have to take into account the people who feel that way as well - and, if Not My Table actually does make it to live, how much support the "This is dumb I quit" option is getting.


I think this is very accurate. For me, WoT completely shattered my immersion. When it came to light that blizzard took the easiest route and just had Sylvanas burn the tree to be a meanie, it took me out of the setting. None of the characters have been acting as they are supposed to, and events are happening in blatantly artificial ways.

It's because of stuff like this that I only get annoyed at anything with the dark shore warfront. That whole story is tainted.
11/11/2018 09:17 PMPosted by Jellex
11/11/2018 05:28 PMPosted by Kisin
You're voting for a meta reason based on your belief that Blizzard will always make the Horde villains.


I just wanted to break this out and highlight it a bit, because I believe it's indicative of where the problems with the story are starting to emerge. That is to say, people ARE starting to vote for meta reasons rather than story reasons - and the reason people do this, I think, is because the story is so forced right now that it is breaking the immersion of more people who care about the lore. Once you have broken people out of their immersion, their reactions are going to be tainted with bitterness. I know I have stopped thinking "Sylvanas has gone too far and must be stopped!" and am now thinking "Why are you hamfistedly trying to make me hate Sylvanas so much?"

Incidentally, I know you have framed the choice as "support for Sylvanas' methods/support for Saurfang's ideal" but I have been viewing the choice as "oppose Horde civil war/support Horde civil war". I think you have to take into account the people who feel that way as well - and, if Not My Table actually does make it to live, how much support the "This is dumb I quit" option is getting.


Immersion for me has been dying for a while, but BfA's been the death blow. Argus questing hurt it a bit, since it was clearly not tailored to account for factions - the quest-givers and dialogue were the same whether you were a human paladin or orc warlock. Having Alleria constantly do 180's in regards to whether or not she likes your race / faction, as well as having Veressa giving multiple wq's, was a bit weird.

BfA has broken it, and continues to do so, with just how heavy-handily they're trying to force certain characters and narratives down my throat. It's not enough that Sylvanas has to burn the tree; gotta give her a stupid motive too (and a stupid cutscene as well - couldn't even make her death believable). Gotta also make sure you know you've done bad by having the Alliance get an impossible quest to rescue the townsfolk. Don't question how the Alliance got to the outskirts of Undercity, or why the Zandalari princess wound up in their dungeon though - that might take too long to tell through questing, and we're not quite sure how to keep Anduin and Co. utterly pristine throughout the ordeal. Also, Anduin has a 2h sword, plate armor, and Redemption from WC3, but totally isn't a paladin. Now, go enjoy your war campaign where you seemingly stumble around each zone, throw away the guy you raised to get a relic you just heard about, proceed to lose the relic, and now rely on the guy Sylvanas raised to single-handily win the war. Also, she has to torture him first to make sure you know she's evil now. Oh, and apparently the world's dying during all of this, but the dwarf statue isn't giving any sort of updates on this.

Also, in the future, Azshara does something to make her palace exposed to invasions from outsiders, for reasons.

Edit: What really kills it though, is looking back over all the previous expansions, and realizing the faction you've played for so long never really got a proper moment to truly shine, and now all the remaining characters are being wrecked in some form or fashion.
11/11/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Grimdy
In the upcoming patch, 8.1, I'm not sure what to do about Sylvanas, and I'm sharing it here for reflection.

I've played all 14 years of WoW and most of it on Alliance, but I switched to Horde for the first time in earnest after I saw the video where Sylvanas and Lordaeron were attacked. In the context of that video her words spoke to me when she observed we've forgotten what it means to be strong. I felt ashamed at the war monger Greymane and the insecure boy-king. unjustly marching on the dark lady (my dwarf has had a crush on her since forever).

I changed sides.

I parked my Alliance characters and leveled a Highmountain Tauren. Then I learned Teldrassil was burned by the Horde, and I felt they must have a good reason, or maybe there was an azerite-like accident. When I played the initial scenario for BFA I chose not to spray Horde soldiers as I was also Horde. I saw the full video where Sylvanas tweaks out and decides to try and crush the hopes of the Night Elves by burning the tree down in addition to cutting off their seafaring logistics. And I empathized with Saurfang, always have ever since raiding ICC and fighting his son.

Soon I have a difficult choice to make. I must choose which version of the Horde I want to see. And that's the problem, I want Saurfang's vision of the Horde under Sylvanas' leadership.

She has always been the one to make somewhat subtle moves, a chess player rather than a battering ram. Her boldness with the Warchief title does fit. I've heard what she's done in books and I realize my perspective on what defines her is not reflected in all of her actions.

I truly don't know who to back. I want redemption for Sylvanas but being asked to vote before I'm sure she can be redeemed makes me worry that choosing to support her will be siding with her moral values which I also cannot do.


Hope she doesn't turn on you if she sees you as a threat for talking on the forums about her lol.
you picked a bad time to go horde boy-o.
Apologies if I contributed to derailing your thread, OP.

I would recommend thinking about your character, and siding with who makes the most sense to the you, from that story perspective. For my main here, I will obviously be on team Sylvanas, but my troll shaman alt will probably pick Saurfang, for instance.

It's important to keep in mind that we do not know exactly what our choice here will result in. We have been told that it will result in a differing series of quests based on who we side with, but that's it. because of that, I would view it less like a vote, and more like deciding which storyline you would like to play through.

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