Conflicted, to support Sylvanas in 8.1?

Story Forum
11/11/2018 05:37 PMPosted by Bargrand
That this is even up for debate disturbs me. Any redeeming qualities Sylvanas had died after Wrath.

And yet she DID NOT betray her Sisters
Has anyone thought that maybe the choice between Sylvanas and Saurfang is actually one of choosing to remain Horde or joining the Alliance?
Give me a choice between Sylvanas and Greymane and I will lay his still beating heart at her feet.
Give all Races the chance to choose. They want Faction Pride? I AM HORDE, AND I SAY VICTORY FOR SYLVANAS!
I would never choose Saurfang, especially the way Blizzard is retconning the past to make him sympathetic.

No. I will choose Sylvanas. I agree with her previously stated reasonings and I agree with Rexxar and Garona about victory.

Just as an example about choices:

In 2016 I voted for Hillary not Trump.

However, if History suddenly changed the day before the election - and we found out Trump somehow saved Abe Lincoln and arrested John Wilkes Booth, and Trump also saved Franz Ferdinand and avoided WW 1 ... I might have voted for Trump and not Hillary.

My point: Changing history to force present choices is disgusting. So I am just gonna stick with Sylvanas, no matter how much Blizzard alters the past.

I used to agree with her stated goals, but I can't defend my choice anymore. Now, it is out of spite towards Blizzard's story direction.

"Remember this Zekhan!"

/rude gesture
11/11/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Grimdy
Soon I have a difficult choice to make. I must choose which version of the Horde I want to see. And that's the problem, I want Saurfang's vision of the Horde under Sylvanas' leadership.

I know a lot of people are mocking you for saying this, but it's what I would have liked to see too. Unfortunately, the writers did not choose to take the story in that direction.

My solution has been to sit out the faction war. I'll help out Zandalar, but I'm not doing anything Nathanos asks me to. However, that's only possible because I'm not looking to raid with Horde toons in this expansion.
11/11/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Grimdy


Soon I have a difficult choice to make. I must choose which version of the Horde I want to see. And that's the problem, I want Saurfang's vision of the Horde under Sylvanas' leadership.



That's an oxymoron. Something like that might have been possible with Garrosh, if his arc hadn't been butchered - but Sylvanas is written exactly as she should be.

11/11/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Grimdy
I truly don't know who to back. I want redemption for Sylvanas but being asked to vote before I'm sure she can be redeemed makes me worry that choosing to support her will be siding with her moral values which I also cannot do.


Sadly, after Teldrassil her "redemption" is out of the question - and if something like that happens, it will be horrible. I will have to side with Saurfang, and hope the Horde survives.
11/12/2018 03:49 AMPosted by Morrighanna
I AM HORDE, AND I SAY VICTORY FOR SYLVANAS!
she said while posting on her Worgen alt.
11/12/2018 03:34 AMPosted by Morrighanna
And yet she DID NOT betray her Sisters
She chose not to in that moment due to an emotional reaction, but her ultimate plan is still to subjugate them. Probably through death.
11/12/2018 03:49 AMPosted by Morrighanna
Has anyone thought that maybe the choice between Sylvanas and Saurfang is actually one of choosing to remain Horde or joining the Alliance?
You're funny.
Just popping my head in here to say I love that nearly half of this thread was occupied by philosophical ranting from Legacy of Kain earlier in the day.

Although I have no idea how Treng thinks Saurfang could compare to the titular Kain and that somehow be a good thing.
Considering Sylvie's ideologically turning the Horde into the Forsaken, and I didn't chose to play the Forsaken ... the choice isn't much of a choice for me.

While I would prefer that Saurfang not lead (and is rather going to retrieve Thrall), Sylvie proved to me in Stormheim that she's in every way still on her damned character arc in Edge of Night. She's still trying to find a way to avoid her afterlife ... and I've seen nothing to suggest to me that she's not still that selfish, egocentric, nihilist who uses people for personal agendas.

She's a dead end that splits the faction down a simple line: "Those that state that ideals are worthless if you're dead" and "those that say that ideals are equally worthless if you throw them away the moment they become inconvenient". Its hard to be a principled person ... and while i have problems with Saurfang, I definitely prefer him over Sylvie. She's a fantastic battle commander, but not much else.
11/11/2018 09:13 PMPosted by Vozul
11/11/2018 07:45 PMPosted by Pyrogar
Your fandom or your morality.


Bruh, this is literally just two fandoms, one edgier than the other. It's not that serious, chill. Nobody's decisions ingame should reflect on them IRL. You're just muddying the waters with hyperbole like this.
Yo, real life has nothing to do with what I’m saying. We’re supposed to be champions of Azeroth, Heroes. By backing a character like Sylvanas, can u really call urself a hero? And by opposing her, we risk losing yet another great Horde character, it’s infuriating especially for long-time Horde players who love both the characters of Sylv and Saurfang.

I’m ‘muddying the waters’? Afrasiabi literally claimed that the writers are doing a good job since the fan base is spliced like it is. I’m just pointing it out that the writers are intentionally pitting Horde players against each each other. If anything, they’re muddying the waters.
11/12/2018 08:54 PMPosted by Pyrogar
By backing a character like Sylvanas, can u really call urself a hero?


Therein lies one the problems with the story. The player should be able to feel heroic regardless of the choice they make. That is one of the reasons why many will pick her regardless. Just like we should be able to feel heroic regardless of the faction we pick, we should be able to feel heroic regardless of the race we play as or which racial leader we prefer. Sylvanas was supposed to be our heroic anti-hero option. Blizzard actively chose to fail to provide that option.
11/11/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Grimdy
In the upcoming patch, 8.1, I'm not sure what to do about Sylvanas, and I'm sharing it here for reflection.

I've played all 14 years of WoW and most of it on Alliance, but I switched to Horde for the first time in earnest after I saw the video where Sylvanas and Lordaeron were attacked. In the context of that video her words spoke to me when she observed we've forgotten what it means to be strong. I felt ashamed at the war monger Greymane and the insecure boy-king. unjustly marching on the dark lady (my dwarf has had a crush on her since forever).

I changed sides.

I parked my Alliance characters and leveled a Highmountain Tauren. Then I learned Teldrassil was burned by the Horde, and I felt they must have a good reason, or maybe there was an azerite-like accident. When I played the initial scenario for BFA I chose not to spray Horde soldiers as I was also Horde. I saw the full video where Sylvanas tweaks out and decides to try and crush the hopes of the Night Elves by burning the tree down in addition to cutting off their seafaring logistics. And I empathized with Saurfang, always have ever since raiding ICC and fighting his son.

Soon I have a difficult choice to make. I must choose which version of the Horde I want to see. And that's the problem, I want Saurfang's vision of the Horde under Sylvanas' leadership.

She has always been the one to make somewhat subtle moves, a chess player rather than a battering ram. Her boldness with the Warchief title does fit. I've heard what she's done in books and I realize my perspective on what defines her is not reflected in all of her actions.

I truly don't know who to back. I want redemption for Sylvanas but being asked to vote before I'm sure she can be redeemed makes me worry that choosing to support her will be siding with her moral values which I also cannot do.


She will probably backstab the players regardless of your vote too. Shes nothing more than a snake that would do anything for her own benefit.
11/11/2018 05:21 PMPosted by Verlius
11/11/2018 05:03 PMPosted by Kisin
You'll never get Saurfang's Horde under Sylvanas. She doesn't care about honor or morality and will do absolutely anything if it means she wins the battle.

That includes testing the Blight on kidnapped tauren in her laboratories deep under Lordaeron. That includes bombing Southshore with so much bile that the land won't be habitable by even the dead for a century or more. That includes burning an entire kingdom with a capital city and multiple villages full of non-combatant civilians and children to the ground.

I also doubt she will ever change. You need to acknowledge that what you are doing is wrong for you to even have the desire to change, and that is something Sylvanas inherently lacks. Sylvanas doesn't think she is in the wrong to do the things she is doing. She thinks everyone else is wrong for not thinking the way she does.


To add a counter-point, their is no reason to believe the horde will stop being villains after we revolt again to remove an evil warchief again. Saurfang could become evil, he could slip and die putting Gallywix as the warchief, etc.

I don't see how killing Sylvanas will fix anything or put anything on the right track, when the writers are going out of their way to put us off tracks repeatedly since we last did this.

I support sylvanas because I don't want her to die a villain, I do not want her character to continue being butchered and destroyed, and because I want the forsaken race to not have a complete random 180 and lose their themes to even justify their existence in Saurfang's horde.

Going through with another rebellion will most likely completely destroy the forsaken's concepts, themes, and characters, and leave them a husk like what happened with groups like the Orcs. I don't want that, and intend to stubbornly oppose it for as long as I can.


This entirely. I'm tired of folks pretending that characters are real people. They are controlled and portrayed by writers who make decisions.
Sylvanas and Saurfang are both flawed, but the key difference is Saurfang views the Horde as his family while Sylvanas sees the Horde as an expendable resource, like arrows in her quiver. How can I follow a leader that only cares about herself?

Part of me will always resent Sylvanas' appointment to Warchief because of the way Vol'jin was treated. His counterpart, Varian, dies valiantly in a blaze of glory in a cinematic that both factions had to watch, told from his perspective. He gets a big memorial statue in Stormwind. Vol'jin got nothing. He was a side character in his own death sequence. We didn't even get to see him lead his troops on Broken Shore. Sylvanas did that for whatever reason. We watched him get punked by a no-name felguard from Sylvanas' POV, and then his actual death cinematic was entirely about Sylvanas acclimating to the idea of being named Warchief. We didn't get a proper farewell to a beloved character because Sylvanas took up all of the screen time.

Vol'jin fans weren't even given a reason for his completely out of character decision to name her his successor. "Many will not understand... so I'm not even going to bother trying to explain it. Vol'jin out, benches!" Sure, they can pretend like it was their idea all along to have the ghost of Vol'jin come back and answer the question of why he'd appoint someone like her, but even if I believed that (I don't), giving us a spoonful of sugar 2 years after we took the medicine doesn't retroactively help it go down.

I see Sylvanas as an illegitimate leader, and the new lore regarding Vol'jin, while late and probably tacked on, seems to be suggesting as much. Had she done anything to hint at the possibility that she actually gives a fork about the Horde as a whole and not just herself, I might be willing to change my view of her. But she hasn't.
11/13/2018 07:00 PMPosted by Rathi
Vol'jin got nothing. He was a side character in his own death sequence. We didn't even get to see him lead his troops on Broken Shore. Sylvanas did that for whatever reason. We watched him get punked by a no-name felguard from Sylvanas' POV, and then his actual death cinematic was entirely about Sylvanas' acclimating to the idea of being named Warchief. We didn't get a proper farewell to a beloved character because Sylvanas took up all of the screen time.


This really was completely ridiculous. Vol'jin was never allowed to be a proper Warchief.
Vol'jin was never allowed to be a proper Warchief.
Hey, he showed up that ONE time to say "nice boats". As his single accomplishment as Warchief, he was correct that they were nice boats. So he has a 100% win rate.
11/13/2018 10:10 PMPosted by Hahahahahaha
Vol'jin was never allowed to be a proper Warchief.
Hey, he showed up that ONE time to say "nice boats". As his single accomplishment as Warchief, he was correct that they were nice boats. So he has a 100% win rate.
I didn't even build a dock on this character just so Vol'Jin could keep hanging out in my garrison.

I see some posters grieving Rastakhan's death, saying he was a character with so much potential that was pointlessly discarded by Blizzard to pave the way for a new leader before we really got to see how he performed in that roll. Seems to be a common theme with troll leaders.
<span class="truncated">...</span>Hey, he showed up that ONE time to say "nice boats". As his single accomplishment as Warchief, he was correct that they were nice boats. So he has a 100% win rate.
I didn't even build a dock on this character just so Vol'Jin could keep hanging out in my garrison.

I see some posters grieving Rastakhan's death, saying he was a character with so much potential that was pointlessly discarded by Blizzard to pave the way for a new leader before we really got to see how he performed in that roll. Seems to be a common theme with troll leaders.


I think Blizzard's goal is to have no Troll leaders. People think Vol'jin will come back, but I see nothing that supports that he's more than Arthas' Dad telling us about some over arching story about how we must stop either Sylvanas or another evil.
[quote="207683115597"]
This really was completely ridiculous. Vol'jin was never allowed to be a proper Warchief.


QFTMFT.

I was so hyped for a troll Warchief - and a good character like Vol'jin - and he was written out as an afterthought, just for them to shove Sylvanas down our throats. Having literally done nothing...
I don't think I've ever heard a horde fan say that they wanted or liked what happened with Voljin. It seems to be universally hated that voljin got killed so pointlessly, which may be why he is starting to return.

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