Nerf Blood Dks

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
That means they're going to have different strengths and weaknesses intentionally. That does not automatically equivocate to imbalance. It's just asymmetric design.


Gotta love the hypocrisy here
Don't like it... can always go to Classic... Those classes do not exist there. The other thing is Blizzard doesn't need to "nerf" BDK... they need to fix all other !@#$ they messed up on the other classes. I have all of the tank classes, except Druid, never could get into the treehugger thing... They all play different. Warrior's were destroyed in Lich King and to be honest, have been %^-* since. No offense fellows... I tried pulling out my Warrior Tank for Cataclysm, MoP (wasn't around for Draenor) and just didn't bother for Legion. I do fine on my Paladin, BDK, and Monk. The other thing I keep seeing is nerf due to PvP... You guys know you can have your own little realms right? You can't really nerf classes based on a PvP curve if most of the game is centered around PvE. Doesn't make good business sense.
10/10/2018 03:47 PMPosted by Nozomd
Dont worry druid Blizzard will delete DK and DH Class soon enough due to outrage over them both being OP hero classes were a mistake and the developers likely realize it.

And will remove both classes by end of expansion and offer free 120 toons of other class and similar gear to compensate for them loosing their toons.


its not even like demon hunters are OP,. Yes they're at the higher end of the spectrum this time around (mostly due to their semi-versatile tool kit comparatively to the other "!@#$" tanks), but they're also EXTREMELY squishy - a weakness.

Next up, brewmasters, arguably one of the strongest tanks this xpac next to dk's. Sure you can say that means the class is broken, but if you think about it, it does have weaknesses, and the "broken" aspect (stagger) is purely fundamental to the class and is only really viable for prog, for situations where you need to be able to "trivialize" tank dmg to a point where you have some breathing room in hard hitting situations. They do have a caveat though, while they're extremely tanky due to their stagger, they have little to no self healing. In fact, all their self healing is inherently tied to RNG (look up Celestial Fortune, and Gift of the Ox passive BrM abilities) and even in a world with perfect RNG, Celestial Fortune, the stronger of the healing passives, is mostly reliant on external healing.

Now lets look at BDK's. They have a mitigating ability that basically has no downtime (i'd say that's pretty similar to stagger, and honestly, DK's can usually replace any role a Brew is needed for, shown numerically by Mythic parses for multiple weeks) as well, it gives them a huge amount of haste, and stacks. Their self heal is based off previous damage taken in the last 5 seconds(something bears had, but was pruned in BFA for some reason) and adds an absorb shield. So lets think about what that does for a second; due to the constant uptime on their mitigation, they're clearly never going to be one shot, as well as the fact that whatever huge amount of damage they managed to survive, they can heal 25% back. In a 1-shot situation, lets assume thats 25% of their health. This ability is not on the GCD, and scales off haste, this leads them to be able to spam heal themselves a huge amount just for taking one hit. Not to mention, death strike hits, hard.

My suggestion, do the same thing you did to bears. Make the heal a fixed amount, and put it on the GCD, and don't let it scale off haste. Leave the mitigation alone, i'd never seek to make anyone's playstyle as miserable as a bears is right now, but something needs to be done.
10/10/2018 06:12 AMPosted by Orillan
Yes, nerf the dk spec, and while you’re at it nerf frost and unholy damage by 20% to compensate for the nerf.

Nerf frost and unholy damage by 20% for compensate. Blizzard really should start banning people for stupid threads and ideas.
10/10/2018 01:25 PMPosted by Brokenclaws
So you won't tell me what bloods weakness is...and You don't think having a higher % rep means something is off?


A druid made the claim that specs have to have the same tools to deal with magic and physical damage and if they don't it's not balanced. I pointed out the position was idiotic. Nothing more or less. Just because you want to go off the rails bashing blood doesn't mean I care to go off the rails with you. Diving down that rabbit hole doesn't change my point or make it wrong in any way. It's just you deflecting because you're salty.

And no, I don't believe having a higher rep means something is off. Monks historically have low representation and yet Method used 2 of them on Ghuun. Is there correlation at times to public perception of tank power (or any spec for that matter)? Sure. Does that equivocate to imbalance? Again, no. Simply stating there's an imbalance in representation doesn't prove your point at all. The presumption that it does shows you're not interested in having an intellectually honest discussion.

10/10/2018 01:25 PMPosted by Brokenclaws
No one expects a flat 17% per tank, thats impossible. But being within 5-10% makes sense. Everyone is playing what they want. You get upwards of 20-30% difference? Obviously they are moving to that tank because its either easier, or so much more fun that no one wants to play the lower % tanks. Either way, blizzard should so something correct?


No. They shouldn't do something because people flock to specs that they find more fun. Can you prove to me that there's an equal number of people out there that actually enjoy the playstyle/theme of each spec? Of course not, it's ridiculous to presume there is. Hell, again, monks have always had low representation even when they performed well. Should Blizzard have buffed the crap out of them so more people swapped to them, knowing that in doing so they were overbuffing the spec in comparison to other tanks? Absolutely not.

Again, I've already stated in response to your very first post to me that I feel there's some balance issues with tanks. That doesn't mean bad logic shouldn't be pointed out.

10/10/2018 03:44 PMPosted by Trippyvision
so you're telling me it's PURELY coincidence that BDK population is at an all-time high, while they're also out-performing all other tanks by leaps and bounds?

Call me crazy but that doesn't sound right


No, I'm not someone who believes correlation automatically equivocates to causation. Clearly you are. I'm sorry for your inability to recognize your own confirmation bias.
A druid made the claim that specs have to have the same tools to deal with magic and physical damage and if they don't it's not balanced.

What was actually said was you cannot truly balance content when tanks have varied and imbalanced ways to cope with it.

Yes you certainly can have an asymmetric design, I never said you couldn't. But that design requires that for each X there be an acceptable Y in order for the design to be considered reasonable balanced.

The problem with BFA right now is the asymmetric design is not balanced, for some they're in entirely different ball fields from one another - that's the real problem here.

Show me a group of 5 Protection Warriors or Guardian druids complete M+12 Atal'dazar on-time with Fortified, Bolstering, Skittish, and Infested.

This was all i was trying to convey, unfortunately you misinterpreted it.
10/10/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Naros
What was actually said was you cannot truly balance content when tanks have varied and imbalanced ways to cope with it.


So what you said was completely redundant? Imbalance is not balanced? That's truly what you meant? Well...duh? Why even bother writing the sentence because it's entirely meaningless when interpreted that way.

10/10/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Naros
Yes you certainly can have an asymmetric design, I never said you couldn't. But that design requires that for each X there be an acceptable Y in order for the design to be considered reasonable balanced.


Balance is entirely subjective. The only thing objective about balance is if it fits into the paradigm as established by the person or persons who set value for each facet of balance. Beyond that, we can complain all day about not understanding how or why things are balanced in the system based upon our individual beliefs about balance. You're talking in terms that make it clear you think things are objective that are objectively not objective.

10/10/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Naros
The problem with BFA right now is the asymmetric design is not balanced, for some they're in entirely different ball fields from one another - that's the real problem here.


See, I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that there are problems. However I feel this claim is hyperbolic.

10/10/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Naros
Show me a group of 5 Protection Warriors or Guardian druids complete M+12 Atal'dazar on-time with Fortified, Bolstering, Skittish, and Infested.


First, does that actually mean something isn't balanced? At face value I'd have to say no, it doesn't. Even if I did get a chuckle out of it, the gear levels of the people in question matter a lot. We had blood dk's soloing raid bosses and extremely high keys last expansion. Unless we know details that have not been provided, the simple fact that a +12 was completed on time is entirely meaningless. But it confirms what you believe so you accept it without question.

10/10/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Naros
This was all i was trying to convey, unfortunately you misinterpreted it.


I didn't misinterpret anything. You communicate poorly.
I do miss class balance being about strengths and weaknesses. Where some tanks do better at mitigating physical damage, while others at absorbing magic damage.

Now that all classes and specs are homogenized and pasteurized, the remaining functional and enjoyable specs just get calls for nerfs, so that they can enjoy the same boredom and lack of depth as everyone else.

Seriously, ask for buffs for your class or your preferred role, but stop asking to bring specs down to your level of misery.
Posted by Trippyvision
so you're telling me it's PURELY coincidence that BDK population is at an all-time high, while they're also out-performing all other tanks by leaps and bounds?

Call me crazy but that doesn't sound right

No, I'm not someone who believes correlation automatically equivocates to causation. Clearly you are. I'm sorry for your inability to recognize your own confirmation bias.


How is it confirmation bias? I'm basing my opinion on numbers shown that clearly indicate something is askew. The fact that you think things are fine and "balanced" shows you are either ignorant or unaware of what ideals blizzard laid down for tanks.

Now, explain to me how exactly 5 BDK's completing a 12 atal on time is in-line with blizzard's goal to make tanks more reliant on healers? I'm sure that's just because blizzard intended for them to be the only outlier. Makes sense

These are facts bro, not bias

Edit: To add another point, remember when blizzard said that they wanted to give every class a reason to be brought? Why exactly shouldn't we all just become BDK's if they fill all the roles necessary to complete a 12 keystone?
These are facts bro, not bias

LIKE
QUOTE
PREV


The bias occurs when you omit other factors such as player skill gear and the fact that prot pally/brm are doing the similar things right now, only focus on BDK as a spec.

In the last third of Legion I was running +5-+8 with no heals or tank. 5dps specs. Many other people were doing that as well and at higher keys. Didn't see any complaining about it then either.

So yeah, you have some cherry picked facts but when you look at the whole picture that's when it becomes clear that there is bias, which can be shown with omission of facts.

10/11/2018 06:34 AMPosted by Trippyvision
Why exactly shouldn't we all just become BDK's if they fill all the roles necessary to complete a 12 keystone?


Makes about as much sense as me asking why we don't just see Rogue/Affliction parses in raid when angling for UDK buffs. Which is to say, none. Nice strawman, your attempts at rationalization actually make your arguments look weaker. The one about BRM was especially telling especially since you main one.

**Maybe for raids, but my 376 brew can't get into high mythic groups to save his life, and he's over 800 io. This isn't balanced at all man**

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20763856304?page=45#post-897
10/11/2018 06:39 AMPosted by Razeal
The bias occurs when you omit other factors such as player skill gear and the fact that prot pally/brm are doing the similar things right now, only focus on BDK as a spec.

In the last third of Legion I was running +5-+8 with no heals or tank. 5dps specs. Many other people were doing that as well. Didn't see any complaining about it either.

So yeah, you have some cherry picked facts but when you look at the whole picture that's when it becomes clear that there is bias, which can be shown with omission of facts.


Are you seriously trying to tell me 5-8 keystones during Antorus are equivalent to 12's at the beginning of the expansions? Also, how geared could these people possibly only 2 months into the raid? Jeez, it's easy to use facts that are basically irrelevant. And please, please, please show me where a prot pally/ brm group is soloing 12 keys on time, do that and i'll shut my mouth and delete every post i've ever made. And if you're gonna mention Mythic Taloc, please, first try and convince me how thats an indicator of "player skill".
10/10/2018 10:50 PMPosted by Nyhlia
10/10/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Naros
What was actually said was you cannot truly balance content when tanks have varied and imbalanced ways to cope with it.


So what you said was completely redundant? Imbalance is not balanced? That's truly what you meant? Well...duh? Why even bother writing the sentence because it's entirely meaningless when interpreted that way.

10/10/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Naros
Yes you certainly can have an asymmetric design, I never said you couldn't. But that design requires that for each X there be an acceptable Y in order for the design to be considered reasonable balanced.


Balance is entirely subjective. The only thing objective about balance is if it fits into the paradigm as established by the person or persons who set value for each facet of balance. Beyond that, we can complain all day about not understanding how or why things are balanced in the system based upon our individual beliefs about balance. You're talking in terms that make it clear you think things are objective that are objectively not objective.

10/10/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Naros
The problem with BFA right now is the asymmetric design is not balanced, for some they're in entirely different ball fields from one another - that's the real problem here.


See, I don't necessarily disagree with the idea that there are problems. However I feel this claim is hyperbolic.

10/10/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Naros
Show me a group of 5 Protection Warriors or Guardian druids complete M+12 Atal'dazar on-time with Fortified, Bolstering, Skittish, and Infested.


First, does that actually mean something isn't balanced? At face value I'd have to say no, it doesn't. Even if I did get a chuckle out of it, the gear levels of the people in question matter a lot. We had blood dk's soloing raid bosses and extremely high keys last expansion. Unless we know details that have not been provided, the simple fact that a +12 was completed on time is entirely meaningless. But it confirms what you believe so you accept it without question.

10/10/2018 08:56 PMPosted by Naros
This was all i was trying to convey, unfortunately you misinterpreted it.


I didn't misinterpret anything. You communicate poorly.


wtf did you even just say? Seriously. This is the kind of corporate speak I get in memos from my boss. All big words, tossed together without any true relevance to each other and its only purpose is to sound good to all the other boffins who read it.
Nerfing BDK won't make any of the other tank specs better.

Warrior and druids are still going to be trashcans and then Pally will be the one you whine about.

We should be advocating for buffs to other classes. Ideally to warrior or druid so I can stop playing this class.
10/11/2018 06:56 AMPosted by Trippyvision
Are you seriously trying to tell me 5-8 keystones during Antorus are equivalent to 12's at the beginning of the expansions?


No it's relatively more over powered, and running 5-8's (people did higher than that) with 5 dps and no tank is relatively much much worse by your standards than putting 5 tanks in a M+ 4 levels higher. The difference between the two would be affixes and a 68% increase in damage. If I can clear a +8 with 5 casual players all on dps specs I'd fully expect several tank specs to be able to stack up 5 and clear a 10+. Especially if they really knew the dungeon and it's pulls.

You can pontificate all you want about group comps; it's a dead end argument because people will try things and experiment. If you have a problem with that it's on your mentality not people who explore things in game or think outside the box.

Stick to arguing for Druid/Warrior buffs in the role of tank, not nerfs to something just to appease your ego child.

10/11/2018 06:56 AMPosted by Trippyvision
Also, how geared could these people possibly only 2 months into the raid?


Could be 380+ with titan forges. Check out my pants. I'm 350 after a week and a half of being level capped, ultra low playtime on this character and a re roll from UDK. People who are dedicated blood tanks running far more content than myself could easily be 30+ ilvls higher.

Here's my IO:

https://raider.io/characters/us/moonrunner/Razeal

10/11/2018 06:56 AMPosted by Trippyvision
Jeez, it's easy to use facts that are basically irrelevant.


You could teach a course on this. It's also easy to say something is irrelevant and ignore it when it doesn't support your points in an argument, which is another form of bias. I don't question that BDK does the most healing of any tank currently, but you willfully omit that you're measuring a complete tank against two woefully incomplete ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ODdBuE1v4jk&feature=youtu.be

I suppose that because this player didn't beat the timer this is irrelevant, even though you still get LB consideration/loot for finishing the key. Only thing you actually miss here is an upgrade on a key, which isn't actually a big deal at all. By the way, is it worse to have one player clear a +10 or 5 clear a +12?

10/11/2018 06:56 AMPosted by Trippyvision
And if you're gonna mention Mythic Taloc, please, first try and convince me how thats an indicator of "player skill".


What deals more damage and would be harder to deal with, soloing a Mythic raid boss or stacking 5 tanks with 5 taunts to swap aggro/debuffs around, 5 sets of defensives etc on a week where RNG affixes favored such a thing? My guess would be the solo Mythic raid boss. Tell you what dude, roll up a blood dk and go try and solo Mythic Taloc and come back with a ss of you doing it if it's so easy. Keeping in mind that it would be much much harder on a pally. Let's see you and 4 buddies blow through a +10 on BDK. That's two levels lower than the Atal'D clear; should be easy.

Love how you rationalize and bias and use hypocrisy to make your points, because the reality is you're measuring from the bottom and setting the bar there, while also ignoring the fact that blood launched in a much better mechanical and tuned state than guardian or prot. That doesn't mean that all other examples of tank shenanigans are invalid, and that also doesn't mean more people should suffer because Guardian/Prot are hot garbage atm.
Dude you are going off on so many tangents, you must be angrier than I am lmao.

First off, are you now telling me that 5-8's during Antorus (the last tier of the expansion, when people were timing 20s and up) were somehow harder than a 12 right now at the first tier of a new expansion?

Secondly, I'm not comparing BDK to any tank, because there is no comparison; no other tank has the amount of single target damage, active mitigation uptime + secondary buff, and of course - self healing. THAT would be a "dead end argument". What I'm up in arms about is the sheer AMOUNT of self-healing they can do, I have no problem with them being the most self-healy of the tanks, I'm not concerned with that title. What I'm concerned with, is when they start doing more healing than an actual !@#$ing healer.

And on mythic taloc; wow lmao, you have no idea what you're talking about xD did you even watch the video? it was a whole raid of prot pallies you dingus, not just one person

The one thing I will give you, yeah, BDK is 100% the most complete tank atm

Oh and here's my actual characters IO since we're doing that now i guess

https://raider.io/characters/us/stormrage/Insens

But yeah, keep telling me how I have no idea what I'm talking about and don't know what current state of tanks is
this just goes to show how grossly uninformed some people are on the forums
10/11/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Trippyvision
What I'm concerned with, is when they start doing more healing than an actual !@#$ing healer.


https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#metric=hps&difficulty=4&class=Any -75th percentile.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/statistics/19#metric=hps&difficulty=4&class=Any&dataset=99

99th. Same at max.

They aren't even close to that. If a tank is out healing healers on M+ it's one of two things, the tank out gears the content or the healer is being lazy. Actually three things, could be a really good group that takes less damage causing the healer to heal less.

10/11/2018 10:09 AMPosted by Trippyvision
this just goes to show how grossly uninformed some people are on the forums


Delicious irony.

10/11/2018 10:05 AMPosted by Trippyvision
First off, are you now telling me that 5-8's during Antorus (the last tier of the expansion, when people were timing 20s and up) were somehow harder than a 12 right now at the first tier of a new expansion?


In context to how they were done and the differences between tank/dps survival kit? Yep. If you want to be willfully ignorant and put DPS defenses on the same level as tank defenses by all means do so. It makes my points stronger and yours weaker when you generalize to obfuscate like that.
Posted by Trippyvision
this just goes to show how grossly uninformed some people are on the forums

Delicious irony.


completely ignoring the fact that you made up your own story about the mythic taloc kill. lol.

and hold on, give me a minute to find the logs that shows a mythic fetid kill where BDK's literally were number 2 heals in a raid group

Edit: Found it :) https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/fFyw3K2ZmvJczMBW#fight=88&type=healing but yeah, more bias and lack of facts. amirite
Posted by Trippyvision
First off, are you now telling me that 5-8's during Antorus (the last tier of the expansion, when people were timing 20s and up) were somehow harder than a 12 right now at the first tier of a new expansion?

In context to how they were done and the differences between tank/dps survival kit? Yep. If you want to be willfully ignorant and put DPS defenses on the same level as tank defenses by all means do so. It makes my points stronger and yours weaker when you generalize to obfuscate like that.
dude ANY tank could've done that SOLO at the point in time you're describing, most of us were pretty OP. you're literally making an invalid point

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