Not going to betray the Horde

Tides of Vengeance PTR General Discussion
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They really wrote themselves into a corner on this one. The faction war obviously has to continue forever for gameplay purposes. And the story only has one conclusion, there are no player choice branches. Either Sylvanas will maintain control and forgive every player who worked with the Alliance against her (she's not the forgiving type), or she'll be Garrosh'd only for the Alliance to then turn against the Horde who helped them (which doesn't seem like what Anduin would do).

Whichever path it takes, I guess the old god big bad is meant to distract from the inconsistencies and provide a fresh slate for the next expansion.
10/11/2018 10:30 PMPosted by Darthwaggle
Either Sylvanas will maintain control and forgive every player who worked with the Alliance against her (she's not the forgiving type), or she'll be Garrosh'd only for the Alliance to then turn against the Horde who helped them (which doesn't seem like what Anduin would do).

Third option... they can just Kerrigan her story.
10/12/2018 12:17 AMPosted by Dvis
10/11/2018 10:30 PMPosted by Darthwaggle
Either Sylvanas will maintain control and forgive every player who worked with the Alliance against her (she's not the forgiving type), or she'll be Garrosh'd only for the Alliance to then turn against the Horde who helped them (which doesn't seem like what Anduin would do).

Third option... they can just Kerrigan her story.


I'm not super familiar with that one.
10/12/2018 12:39 AMPosted by Darthwaggle
10/12/2018 12:17 AMPosted by Dvis
...
Third option... they can just Kerrigan her story.


I'm not super familiar with that one.


Sarah Kerrigan was the Arthas/Lich King equivalent for StarCraft. Wound up being restored to her original mind and becoming the universe’s messiah in StarCraft 2.
I think if anything story-wise could ever kill WoW, that would be it.
10/12/2018 12:39 AMPosted by Darthwaggle
I'm not super familiar with that one.


Starcraft: Kerrigan is a heroic human psychic helping to defend humanity from the zerg. Oh no, she was captured, and infested! The zerg mutated her and brainwashed her, making her a servant of the evil Overmind, and they used her to help defeat some protoss. Later the Overmind is killed for unrelated reasons.

Starcraft: Brood War: Kerrigan apologises to the protoss, claiming that she was mind-controlled by the Overmind, and now she's got free will again she wants to help. They give her a chance, things get very complicated, and long story short Kerrigan was lying, she betrays and murders everyone, and takes over the sector.

Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty: But wait, retcon time! Turns out that Kerrigan was still being mind-controlled, only more subtly, because the Overmind himself was being controlled by Amon, an evil space god thing from the Void. The humans get an ancient alien artifact and use to de-infest Kerrigan, removing both her zerg powers and the last lingering remains of mind control.

Starcraft II: Heart of the Swarm: Kerrigan is now really, really sad about all the evil things she did and is traumatised. But her boyfriend gets captured by the evil human leader, and he claims to have executed him, so Kerrigan goes mad with rage, re-infests herself (but this time with genuine free will, no mind control of any sort), and goes on a giant rampage where she kills lots of innocent people, and also some actual bad guys. She promises to then help the other good guys kill Amon, which they accept because they've got bigger fish to fry than her.

Starcraft II: Legacy of the Void: Amon mind-controls the entire protoss race, it's complicated, long story short the protoss go and kill him, Kerrigan doesn't have much to do with it beyond a short cameo. But then! There's an epilogue where only Amon's corporeal form was destroyed, and he's still alive in the Void! So some humans, protoss, and zerg go into the Void to kill him. To truly destroy Amon, someone will need to absorb the power of the ancient space gods and become a space god themselves, and Kerrigan volunteers for this. (Everyone acts like this is a terrible sacrifice for some reason, like Kerrigan is doing something suicidal to try to atone.) So Kerrigan becomes a space god and kills Amon. And then either her old boyfriend gets drunk and commits suicide, or she uses her magic space god powers to bring him with her to wherever it is that space gods live and they have hot sex for eternity. The ending is kind of unclear.

Anyway, if WoW followed this pattern... I guess it would be the equivalent of discovering that N'Zoth or the Void Lords or someone was secretly tainting Sylvanas all along and making her be evil, and we free her from their control, and in order to atone she merges with the worldsoul of Azeroth and saves the world and then vanishes to heaven forever.

Basically, this: https://i.imgur.com/kSvBCpT.png
10/12/2018 03:23 AMPosted by Adraia
Anyway, if WoW followed this pattern... I guess it would be the equivalent of discovering that N'Zoth or the Void Lords or someone was secretly tainting Sylvanas all along and making her be evil, and we free her from their control, and in order to atone she merges with the worldsoul of Azeroth and saves the world and then vanishes to heaven forever.

Basically, this: https://i.imgur.com/kSvBCpT.png

That's a bit too precise for what I meant, but nice retelling of the Blizzard Space Opera in 3 minutes!

I just meant they'd have some Sylvanas redemption arc to wrap things up nicely so the Boy-Wonder King doesn't have to get his hands dirty, and they can go back to fauxCraft in the next expansion where a new new new continent is discovered and a Big Bad rises up to destroy the world!

P.S. That artwork needs to be the entirety of whatever art book is included with WoW 9.0's collector's edition.
10/11/2018 10:29 PMPosted by Tyriellais
Sylvanas is not the Horde.


Which is part of my feedback. If Blizzard kills off Sylvanas, the idea that the Forsaken would stay in the Horde seems hard to believe. I'm just asking Blizzard give my undead Forsaken the option of ending it's story.
10/12/2018 03:23 AMPosted by Adraia
10/12/2018 12:39 AMPosted by Darthwaggle
I'm not super familiar with that one.


Starcraft: Kerrigan is a heroic human psychic helping to defend humanity from the zerg. Oh no, she was captured, and infested! The zerg mutated her and brainwashed her, making her a servant of the evil Overmind, and they used her to help defeat some protoss. Later the Overmind is killed for unrelated reasons.

Starcraft: Brood War: Kerrigan apologises to the protoss, claiming that she was mind-controlled by the Overmind, and now she's got free will again she wants to help. They give her a chance, things get very complicated, and long story short Kerrigan was lying, she betrays and murders everyone, and takes over the sector.


Nothing wrong with this. Could have gone either way. Like DK's. She was mind controlled, or she wasn't. They picked one.

Starcraft II: Wings of Liberty: But wait, retcon time! Turns out that Kerrigan was still being mind-controlled, only more subtly, because the Overmind himself was being controlled by Amon, an evil space god thing from the Void. The humans get an ancient alien artifact and use to de-infest Kerrigan, removing both her zerg powers and the last lingering remains of mind control.


i think this is where things started to go to crap. They chose a direction and then tried to walk it back and take the other path.

Then, to reinforce that bad idea, they doubled down on how good she was which only doubled down on the badness of the idea.
I think Sylvanas is amazing.

I think that half the horde should break off and go do their own "honorable" thing, or whatever nonsense it is, you guys believe in and Sylvanas should become her own separate 3rd faction, for the rest of us.
10/12/2018 10:27 AMPosted by Coldsnap
I think Sylvanas is amazing.

I think that half the horde should break off and go do their own "honorable" thing, or whatever nonsense it is, you guys believe in and Sylvanas should become her own separate 3rd faction, for the rest of us.

Best ideal I have heard so far but do you think blizzard would give It a go (as in a snowball chance in heck).
I don't see what the problem is. You were ordered to rescue Saurfang, weren't you? It's not treason to follow the warchief's orders. If Sylvanas really wanted you to assassinate Saurfang, she should have been clear about that.

But you know what would be a neat twist? If Lyana wasn't ordered to assassinate Saurfang either. That would add an element of mystery to the plot, and could actually go places other than "Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0".
10/12/2018 11:08 AMPosted by Shoeless
I don't see what the problem is. You were ordered to rescue Saurfang, weren't you? It's not treason to follow the warchief's orders. If Sylvanas really wanted you to assassinate Saurfang, she should have been clear about that.

But you know what would be a neat twist? If Lyana wasn't ordered to assassinate Saurfang either. That would add an element of mystery to the plot, and could actually go places other than "Siege of Orgrimmar 2.0".


She wasn't trying to kill him outright and even says as much. Something along the lines of "if we wanted to kill you we'd just burn the hut down around you".

Instead she asks him to drop his weapons and come peacefully.
10/12/2018 11:31 AMPosted by Drako
She wasn't trying to kill him outright and even says as much. Something along the lines of "if we wanted to kill you we'd just burn the hut down around you".


https://i.imgur.com/WBUmoYW.jpg

It's more like "Either come out or we kill you by burning the hut down around you".

https://i.imgur.com/IiL1CbP.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/dufF5iV.jpg

She didn't ask for him to surrender, either. It was an ultimatum: Surrender or die.

And, like I said, I think this whole scenario would be much more interesting, and at the very least not such a blatant retread of Dagger in the Dark, if Lyana was acting of her own volition.
Sylvanas does not represent the horde in any form or fashion, she's out for her own agenda history has shown that.
10/12/2018 12:40 PMPosted by Leafmealone
Sylvanas does not represent the horde in any form or fashion, she's out for her own agenda history has shown that.


What's the difference between the Warchiefs' agenda and the Hordes' agenda?

Likewise, what's the difference between a king' agenda and his countries' agenda?
10/12/2018 01:02 PMPosted by Jacksprat
10/12/2018 12:40 PMPosted by Leafmealone
Sylvanas does not represent the horde in any form or fashion, she's out for her own agenda history has shown that.


What's the difference between the Warchiefs' agenda and the Hordes' agenda?

Likewise, what's the difference between a king' agenda and his countries' agenda?


Sylvanas only cares about the Forsaken, that's been shown time and time again, and she's even stated that the rest of the Horde is nothing but meatshields to her and her forsaken.

The hordes agenda as a whole is to protect each other, and their lands. Her agenda is to protect her forsaken and their lands.

I will gladly stab whatever I can into the back of that banshee to take her out.
10/12/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Sunwhisper
10/12/2018 01:02 PMPosted by Jacksprat
...

What's the difference between the Warchiefs' agenda and the Hordes' agenda?

Likewise, what's the difference between a king' agenda and his countries' agenda?


Sylvanas only cares about the Forsaken, that's been shown time and time again, and she's even stated that the rest of the Horde is nothing but meatshields to her and her forsaken.

The hordes agenda as a whole is to protect each other, and their lands. Her agenda is to protect her forsaken and their lands.

I will gladly stab whatever I can into the back of that banshee to take her out.


Is she sacrificing other Horde lands for Forsaken lands?
10/12/2018 01:43 PMPosted by Sunwhisper
I will gladly stab whatever I can into the back of that banshee to take her out.

Traitorous elf
What's stupid is that it is an easy fix for both sides, even with some stuff implemented in the scenario.
At the start you have the option to either 'simply nod' or answer 'yes, my queen' change queen to warchief and then you get the loyal version of the scenario. Where at the end instead of turning against the dark rangers you fight Saurfang and zappy, but at the end Saurfang beats you to 1hp and says something like "For a long time I too chose loyalty over honor. We have fought together many times, and you have conducted yourself with honor and brought glory to the Horde. For that you have earned the same chance I had to choose another path". The bat then picks you up, and the screen goes black, Sylvanas sees that you're beaten within an inch of your life and doesn't suspect you as much as just having a simple bruise.

Ezpz. Horde who value honor over all get to be in on Saurfang's conspiracy and maintain some semblance of honor as they work with him, those who value victory over all get to go through the same storyline but maintain their loyalty to Sylvanas and the Horde.
It isn't like any of this is new tech, Cataclysm already did this with the Do the right thing quest in Hillsbrad.

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