Feral DPS really is aweful

Druid
I don't think feral is bad at all. Its always been gear reliant its just the stat weights focus more on haste this time around compared to crit in previous expansions. Do we need some tuning to raise us up? For sure. Are we in an absolute terrible spot, no way.

At 369 ilvl I can maintain 11.5k on the dummy with no buffs or potions in the full single target talent set up, which happens to be about 300 dps or so off what my sim says. Add in flasks, double pots, and lust and the damage really starts going up there in a pve setting. Add all that in and I'm sitting about 15k

Imo if you are only pulling 6k at 355 ilvl you are absolutely doing something wrong because I was easily above 9k at that ilvl. Yes, secondary stats matter that much. No it's not fun to reduce ilvl just to gain a ton of haste, but that's the game right now. You literally have to sim everything.
10/18/2018 09:04 AMPosted by Moonyfish
10/18/2018 07:55 AMPosted by Wraithe
...

Okay, if you want to go deeper into it, fine.

Your 2ndary stats are bad. As in BAD. Your haste is about HALF of what it should be. Your trinkets are okay, but you are missing out on a lot of damage if you were to pick up some of the better performing options. Your armory still shows the Str polearm equipped so I can't comment on your new weapon. Your Azerite traits are TERRIBLE. Yes, they do actually matter. NONE of your gear is enchanted. Nor do you have a gem in that empty slot.

Telling people to L2P isn't just about pushing the correct buttons, although that is a considerable part of it. It also includes gearing correctly, using the correct consumables, having the right enchants, simming your toon to see where optimal gameplay with buffs would place you, simming your toon to see where optimal gameplay WITHOUT buffs would place you, using the correct talents (again, your armory is messed up so I can't even judge that atm), etc etc etc.


But if i had the proper enchants and gems you could argue the guardian with feral affin would also go up in damage. And as far as haste goes, I get the gear i get, I don't have multiple sets yet to optimize all my stats for a spec, but I think right now my gear is definatly best for feral. I just think that if feral is so dependant upon gear to fix it, then maybe there is something wrong with it. Because the other druid specs I can perform reasonably well without even thinking about this. So if Feral is the only spec that is so bad that it needs proper gear to fix it, then maybe we can just admit its bad right now?


Okay, sooo... This is you now:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2km3JURcwEBMQv76H83MJA

This is me at 351 back in mid September:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kpgfP7ztfuaYbmkgUoCvWW

343 in late August:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/o1b2CQzETGrSGGNpFjKpyp

334 in mid August:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gisBMPqU6t5fz7at1Sv5yT

Gear, Talents, Azerite, 2ndary stats, Enchants MATTER. Item level is just a number, but has little bearing on if the item is really good or not. It is just a number. What is on that item is what matters. How does it affect your toon. What do you do to enhance those traits that are good for you? Enchant, Gems, searching the right rings and trinkets (item level means even less for these). Getting your talents right. Getting the right pieces of Azerite. All of that makes a MASSIVE total difference.
I could use some help from folks, too. I feel like I should be doing much better than I am.
Feral druids are very trait reliant. I can almost guarantee that's where your problem is. My traits isn't the best either, but you can try for wild fleshrending or something like that. It's a particularly useful trait for sustained damage when you use omen procs on thrash.
10/18/2018 12:46 PMPosted by Wraithe
<span class="truncated">...</span>

But if i had the proper enchants and gems you could argue the guardian with feral affin would also go up in damage. And as far as haste goes, I get the gear i get, I don't have multiple sets yet to optimize all my stats for a spec, but I think right now my gear is definatly best for feral. I just think that if feral is so dependant upon gear to fix it, then maybe there is something wrong with it. Because the other druid specs I can perform reasonably well without even thinking about this. So if Feral is the only spec that is so bad that it needs proper gear to fix it, then maybe we can just admit its bad right now?


Okay, sooo... This is you now:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/2km3JURcwEBMQv76H83MJA

This is me at 351 back in mid September:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/kpgfP7ztfuaYbmkgUoCvWW

343 in late August:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/o1b2CQzETGrSGGNpFjKpyp

334 in mid August:

https://www.raidbots.com/simbot/report/gisBMPqU6t5fz7at1Sv5yT

Gear, Talents, Azerite, 2ndary stats, Enchants MATTER. Item level is just a number, but has little bearing on if the item is really good or not. It is just a number. What is on that item is what matters. How does it affect your toon. What do you do to enhance those traits that are good for you? Enchant, Gems, searching the right rings and trinkets (item level means even less for these). Getting your talents right. Getting the right pieces of Azerite. All of that makes a MASSIVE total difference.


I don't know what to say about this. Even when you were 20 levels below me in ilvl you still had double the value of every single stat there is. How is this possible? Like I honestly have no clue how that is even possible
10/14/2018 08:51 AMPosted by Mcgoo
There is no way a 349 feral does o my 5k damage on the PvP target dummy, unless you are doing it very very wrong. I has less gear and can sustain 10k-12k, depending on omen procs.


I just logged in to say that this guy is lying. Carry on.
it sucks i have 8 days of game time and im done killing my feral dps was like cuting my !@#$ off
I feel like too much of our damage is loaded into our auto attacks and spamming shreds and anytime we have to leave boss our bleeds (which are stupid weak) just makes our dps fall. blizz needs to decide if they want us to play a dot class or a direct damage class. this crappy state we are in is just stupid
10/14/2018 08:51 AMPosted by Mcgoo
There is no way a 349 feral does o my 5k damage on the PvP target dummy, unless you are doing it very very wrong. I has less gear and can sustain 10k-12k, depending on omen procs.

My guardian with feral affinity and with master shapeshifter will do 9k sustained.

My guardian as bear will do 6k sustained.

Edit: do your PvP damage testing on the PvP dummy.


upload a video doing that. My druid is over 360 and I can do like 9k on target dummy sustained over 5 minutes if I do everything perfect. My DH is like 350 and can barely do 8k single target. Really good AOE, though.
I can get top 3 dps pretty much all the time as feral in BGs. Spread bleed damage. I finished one BG in 1st place when I was bored and didn't focus on objective with like 60% more damage than the 2nd place. 8k should be achievable easily with almost any feral talent build.
10/14/2018 06:12 AMPosted by Moonyfish
So been playing Zybak tank in pvp alot lately doing pretty good there. Decided to try feral again hoping all the buffs made it playable. But I was always lowest on DPS and so squishy found myself in bearform alot just hoping I wouldn't die, so I compared the DPS on a 122 level target dummy and found this.

Feral - 5k
Moonkin - 6k
Gaurdian - 5k
Guardian with feral affin - 5k
Guardian with moonkin affin - 4k

I didn't use incarn just to see what the true steady dps was. And wow, Feral is the same as guardian with feral, or just simply guardian. And that doesn't even include the rot damage brambles provide. So bascially why would you ever do feral when you can do the same dps with all the survivability of tank spec? Seriously, how can Feral be this bad, there is litterly no point to ever play it. And to make it even worse, all my azerite traits are geared for feral, this should not be happening.
feral is awful, super squishy and mechanically hard yet unrewarding. Best spec ever.
I am still wondering how that one guy had double every stat in the game of me with 20 ilvl's below me. I don't get it at all.
10/14/2018 09:49 AMPosted by Eclypze
10-12k dps, no incarn or BT, under 340 ilvl huh...

If that's the case I'm doing it wrong too


I giggled.

But it's very possible. You're looking at BiS gear to do that without cheesing a fight or padding but it's a reasonable amount of dps. The problem is that this raid tier has odd mechanics that make it difficult to rate. 10-12k dps on Fetid @ 340 doesn't seem particularly amazing. 10-12k on a target dummy @ 340 is really good and certainly attainable. 10-12k on vectis seems extraordinarily high given the downtime but easily done if the rest of the raid does enough dps to skip the pool phase.
10/22/2018 08:10 AMPosted by Moonyfish
I am still wondering how that one guy had double every stat in the game of me with 20 ilvl's below me. I don't get it at all.


Feral gets 25% extra haste from gear (until 8.1 where that will change) and free mastery (I think 20%?). Edit: You're in guardian spec which means the % values are different than they'd show up as feral.

Ghrell @ 360i
20% crit (692)
26% haste (1748)
22% mastery (228)
5% versatility (423)
=3091 total secondary stats

Moony @ 355i
18% crit (602)
9% haste (634)
7% mastery (487)
8% versatility (648)
=2371 total secondary stats

Nearly 200 of that difference is solely from the haste bonus. Another 200 is from gems and enchants.

Just something to consider. I'm guessing it's mostly the haste/mastery from your character sheet he was looking at rather than mathing it out.
Maybe someone can set me straight here, because I've seen so many of these "Feral is really really bad" threads. I'm looking at SimCraft and both the ilvl 385 and ilvl 340 sims show Feral is really good. In the 385 sim, Feral is top 3. So, why are people saying feral dps is at an all time low?
10/22/2018 09:28 AMPosted by Notsodead
Maybe someone can set me straight here, because I've seen so many of these "Feral is really really bad" threads. I'm looking at SimCraft and both the ilvl 385 and ilvl 340 sims show Feral is really good. In the 385 sim, Feral is top 3. So, why are people saying feral dps is at an all time low?


Its partially due to people not playing the optimal talent set up and then complaining because talents like MoC don't pull numbers close to BT unless perfected stated as well as having the right traits. Even then it still is less than BT just less so.

The 2nd reason is because those sims expect almost perfect play in a boss fight with no movement, which in most scenarios does not exist in a raid environment. Those sims also use best in slot items, something most people do not have.

Tbf though there is a massive dps difference from a 95% feral and an 80% with the later number being still above the average players skill level.

I don't raid so I can't comment on a fight by fight basis and my only comparison is in +10 or higher m+ keys. Last week in +11 TD on the last boss with tyrannical I did 14.9k dps in a 3.5min fight using m+ talents (pred, JW, Brutal slash, BT) at 360 ilvl and we just barely didn't get the key in time.

People would rather complain than assume they are doing something wrong or they decided to go for ilvl instead of proper hearing. Again I'll say this. Is feral in need of some help, definitely. There's no chance I can compete with the raw numbers of an assassination rogue that's my ilvl and equally skilled (luckily if you are decent it places you above a large portion of the community). While in need of help, we are no where near as awful as some people make it seem.
Most Ferals can't or won't progress their toon to the point where it's possible to do those sky high numbers, even if they do get a boss that is perfect for it. The few who do, still don't pull the numbers you see on the sims because that is a sim. Perfect gear, perfect conditions, perfect mechanics, perfect fight length, perfect buffs, etc. Never happens. Never will happen again. There's a reason the fight sim is named Patchwerk. The boss that gave those conditions. Most fights now truly fall under the heading of Hectic Add Cleave. The simple fact is that if you use the Patchwerk sim for anything other than gear comparison then you are using it wrong.

As for the stats that seem to so befuddle the OP... I said it before. I'll repeat. Item Level doesn't mean all that much, within reason, if you can get those stats you need on your gear. Gathering gear only out of PvP matches/BGs and off the AH will leave your toon starved for more.
Feral DPS overall is ok. What is bad is their viability in M+ and Mythic raid progression. Sims mean nothing as it bases your damage on not having to do mechanics of the fight. It should only be used as a guideline to improve your character and is not a true reflection of what you can pull in every boss fight or every mythic dungeon. The fact that you are pulling that low DPS means you are doing things very wrong in your rotation compounded by the fact that your stat optimisation is horrible.

I consider myself to be an average Feral player and from my log samples you can see what can easily be achieved in lower tier raids. Gearing, Stat optimisation, Build and Rotation are all king in being able to pull decent DPS.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/barthilas/kemono#difficulty=3

End Game Content
M+ is practically bad for Feral as we have no useful AOE that can be sustained. For higher iLvl Ferals you're usually better of running a ST build and be useful for boss fights. Because of this, getting into a M+ group is hard as Feral and really dependant on you having friends or guildies accepting who you are and still taking you.

Mythic Uldir for 100% of all players ranked shows Feral as the 2nd worst DPS class. This isn't purely because we do bad damage, we just don't do enough damage compared to other classes at lower ilvl and Uldir is not suited to melee DPS in general. We bring nothing extra to raid composition so when push comes to shove for progression, Feral will get left behind for better classes.

Talent Builds
For those who still play Feral there are two viable builds you can follow, one being the default you see on WoWhead and the other being a Legion build if you have Wildfleshrending azerite traits to boost your Shred damage.

3313212 Talents which I refer to as the Blood talons build is the default. It is a very heavy rotation and hard to master but rewarding if you get it right. Most Feral druids will run this and is the main cause of pain for reporting low DPS as one slight mistep in rotation causes your numbers to plummet.

1313331 Talents which I refer to as the Legion build is dependant on you having the correct Azerite gear containing the trait Wild Fleshrending. This build follows the exact rotation of Legion minus the legion weapon skill but adds in Thrash to boost Shred damage from the trait. It is easier to use and has a considerable amount of burst making it useful in some Uldir encounters such as Fetid or pushing transitions on other bosses.

Stat Optimisation
Both of these builds require heavy Crit and Haste stack to be above 20% baseline. With the buffs you get in raid, stacking these stats exclusively will give you diminishing returns so as you get to around 30% haste total from all the buffs, start looking at other secondary stats such as mastery and versatility to round yourself out.
10/22/2018 04:34 PMPosted by Kemono
Feral DPS overall is ok. What is bad is their viability in M+ and Mythic raid progression. Sims mean nothing as it bases your damage on not having to do mechanics of the fight. It should only be used as a guideline to improve your character and is not a true reflection of what you can pull in every boss fight or every mythic dungeon. The fact that you are pulling that low DPS means you are doing things very wrong in your rotation compounded by the fact that your stat optimisation is horrible.

I consider myself to be an average Feral player and from my log samples you can see what can easily be achieved in lower tier raids. Gearing, Stat optimisation, Build and Rotation are all king in being able to pull decent DPS.

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/character/us/barthilas/kemono#difficulty=3

End Game Content
M+ is practically bad for Feral as we have no useful AOE that can be sustained. For higher iLvl Ferals you're usually better of running a ST build and be useful for boss fights. Because of this, getting into a M+ group is hard as Feral and really dependant on you having friends or guildies accepting who you are and still taking you.

Mythic Uldir for 100% of all players ranked shows Feral as the 2nd worst DPS class. This isn't purely because we do bad damage, we just don't do enough damage compared to other classes at lower ilvl and Uldir is not suited to melee DPS in general. We bring nothing extra to raid composition so when push comes to shove for progression, Feral will get left behind for better classes.

Talent Builds
For those who still play Feral there are two viable builds you can follow, one being the default you see on WoWhead and the other being a Legion build if you have Wildfleshrending azerite traits to boost your Shred damage.

3313212 Talents which I refer to as the Blood talons build is the default. It is a very heavy rotation and hard to master but rewarding if you get it right. Most Feral druids will run this and is the main cause of pain for reporting low DPS as one slight mistep in rotation causes your numbers to plummet.

1313331 Talents which I refer to as the Legion build is dependant on you having the correct Azerite gear containing the trait Wild Fleshrending. This build follows the exact rotation of Legion minus the legion weapon skill but adds in Thrash to boost Shred damage from the trait. It is easier to use and has a considerable amount of burst making it useful in some Uldir encounters such as Fetid or pushing transitions on other bosses.

Stat Optimisation
Both of these builds require heavy Crit and Haste stack to be above 20% baseline. With the buffs you get in raid, stacking these stats exclusively will give you diminishing returns so as you get to around 30% haste total from all the buffs, start looking at other secondary stats such as mastery and versatility to round yourself out.


Higher io/ilvl ferals are not going full single target in M+. The damage you'd gain on bosses is not worth the damage you'd lose on aoe not using Pred and brutal slash, even if brutal slash is under tuned currently.

I know for sure that myself (950 https://raider.io/characters/us/proudmoore/Pidooma) and Hoofhartd(1500 https://raider.io/characters/us/stormrage/Hoofhartd) are still using Pred, JW, Brutal Slash, BT.

Feral can bring a lot of utility to a M+, soothe for raging weeks is huge, mass entangle is helpful on multiple dungeons, typhoon for sanguine weeks, Brez, ability to taunt juggle with your tank (super useful in higher ToS keys on orb guardians or any mob that can't be CC'd but hits too hard to face tank), AoE Speed boost for those long walks where you cannot mount, constant regrowth heals if you pay attnetion to who needs it and not just mindlessly spam it on yourself for BT, 70k+ swiftmend crits are legit in saving people as well as a clutch wild growth when damage is spread and you can't get on the boss, ability to shift roots is huge in a lot of dungeons. Main problem with this is besides the speed boost Boomkin brings all this and more, but that's more of an issue with melee specs not having enough unique utility compared to their range counterparts which normally bring more plus the advantage of being ranged.

It's definitely hard to get into pugs as feral for high M+, but most high level M+ keys that you have to fully pug are going to be questionable at best anyway. Overall this game is a lot different if you live in the pug world compared to having a dedicated group for any content.

I can't really speak from a raider point of view, so that's more your side though I know multiple Ferals doing Mythic raid progression.

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