Fixing classes > Content every 77 days

Battle for Azeroth Items and Classes
No point in pushing out content every 77 days or so if fixing classes is never a priority in an alpha, beta, launch, and PTR cycles.

Flip the paradigm and listen to your customers for once.

Cheers!
Classes were all simple and boring until Cata / MoP and people refer to those as the "Good ol days".

The problem with wow is that the content outside of raids and dungeons is not fun. The classes are at least tolerable for the most part.
10/17/2018 08:05 AMPosted by Vertigo
Classes were all simple and boring until Cata / MoP and people refer to those as the "Good ol days".

The problem with wow is that the content outside of raids and dungeons is not fun. The classes are at least tolerable for the most part.


Interesting perspective because a lot of people found classes very interesting in WotLK with the introduction of glyphs and the old talent tree still intact.

Between WotLK - Cata -Mop I think that is when class design was at its zenith IMVHO.
10/17/2018 08:05 AMPosted by Vertigo
The classes are at least tolerable for the most part.


Hey Blizz, this is what players these days expect of your class design. Can you please raise the bar a little?
10/17/2018 08:09 AMPosted by Mafic
10/17/2018 08:05 AMPosted by Vertigo
Classes were all simple and boring until Cata / MoP and people refer to those as the "Good ol days".

The problem with wow is that the content outside of raids and dungeons is not fun. The classes are at least tolerable for the most part.


Interesting perspective because a lot of people found classes very interesting in WotLK with the introduction of glyphs and the old talent tree still intact.

Between WotLK - Cata -Mop I think that is when class design was at its zenith IMVHO.


Yes, cookie cutter specs where the majority of choices was just "increase spell damage by 1%" and the rotation consisted of spamming shadowbolt or wrath were much better. This is in reference to wrath and earlier. I will concede that Cata and MoP design was much better, but those expacs had better reward systems for the content in question.

This expac does not, and I do think there is something to be said for the type of content we're doing not changing. The game was younger in those days, and people were not as burnt out on raiding / dungeons as they are now.
Person steering the ship, so to speak, was entirely different in Cata and MoP (not sure when Ion took over)

That is what people see, Ion has this vision of RNG on top of RNG on top of RNG that is just hugely frustrating.

Azerite Armor is a great example of that, want a piece above 340, well you get 3-5 shots a week from raid, one shot from M+ cache and they are PL and a vast loot table respectively. Oh boy they added terrible 7th legion armor via emissary, lol.

In Legion the Legendary's were complete RNG !@#$ show. Hell people even re-rolled same class spec to get appropriate legendary's.

Then look at specs, most have procs now and your damage is %^-* if the procs don't favor you. As a frost mage, having a 25% chance to proc BF and going 8-12 casts w/o a proc is just terrible. It is very rare you actually see 25% proc rate over a single fight.

Or how about Island Expeditions, we are stuck guessing how the hell to get pet/mog/mount... Even then it's further RNG in that you can kill all the air elements alone, yet one of the two other people in your group gets the pet... twice!

You see this RNG in gathering and crafting, etc... hell it's everywhere.

Unfortunately until Ion finds a better opportunity, we are stuck with his way. I just keep hoping another gaming company adores his work and hire's him away.
10/17/2018 08:18 AMPosted by Vertigo
Yes, cookie cutter specs


How is what we have now not cookie cutter specs? Almost everyone runs the exact same talents in content. There is only a change when you do different content (raiding v m+ v pvp) but its still the exact same build you'd see anyone else running.

10/17/2018 08:18 AMPosted by Vertigo
majority of choices was just "increase spell damage by 1%


People liked this tho becuase you felt like you were getting more powerful and being rewarded for leveling which is the point. Also, there was a limited amount of points and, in every case, at least 10 more points you wanted to spend somewhere else. So you had to make a choice in where to put points in the talent tree.



10/17/2018 08:18 AMPosted by Vertigo
the rotation consisted of spamming shadowbolt or wrath were much better


Again, how is that different from what we have now? Talk to any MM that literally uses two spells, aimed and steady. Or fury war just pressing rampage whenever its up. I actually enjoyed the WoTLK rotation because there was a potential for misplay that actually signifcantly decreased your dps, so you could tell who actually knew their rotations and who didnt. But to each their own i guess.
10/17/2018 08:05 AMPosted by Vertigo
Classes were all simple and boring until Cata / MoP and people refer to those as the "Good ol days".


Also, not sure what you mean here. WOTLK disc priest was possible the most fun i've had as a healer. Pennance, shield, prayer of mending and renew where all buffed by the talent tree instant healing talent. You also had flash heal. So I had a very complete tool kit to heal anyone in any situation.

Warlock had multiple curses (weakness, elements, tongue). Some overlapped (the frost/shadow v fire/w.e it was) but you had tools to use in different situation as needed. Also, both destro and afflic (tho afflic was better to begin) were viable, and the rotation/spells synergized very well with each other.
10/17/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Fedras
10/17/2018 08:18 AMPosted by Vertigo
Yes, cookie cutter specs


How is what we have now not cookie cutter specs? Almost everyone runs the exact same talents in content. There is only a change when you do different content (raiding v m+ v pvp) but its still the exact same build you'd see anyone else running.

10/17/2018 08:18 AMPosted by Vertigo
majority of choices was just "increase spell damage by 1%


People liked this tho becuase you felt like you were getting more powerful and being rewarded for leveling which is the point. Also, there was a limited amount of points and, in every case, at least 10 more points you wanted to spend somewhere else. So you had to make a choice in where to put points in the talent tree.



10/17/2018 08:18 AMPosted by Vertigo
the rotation consisted of spamming shadowbolt or wrath were much better


Again, how is that different from what we have now? Talk to any MM that literally uses two spells, aimed and steady. Or fury war just pressing rampage whenever its up. I actually enjoyed the WoTLK rotation because there was a potential for misplay that actually signifcantly decreased your dps, so you could tell who actually knew their rotations and who didnt. But to each their own i guess.


The difference in those cookie cutter specs is that the majority of choices didn't impact you at all, hence the "Increase by 1%" - say what you will about the trees now, but at least they are more impactful on gameplay.

I could care less about being rewarded for leveling - the majority of this game is played at end-game, so I only care about how the talents impact that portion of the game.

Please don't be facetious - there is literally not one spec in the game right now that only uses 2 abilities, not even MM.
Rogues received dismantle, tricks of the trade, FoK in WotLK and the new glyph system enhanced base line abilities like CloS, Sprint, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vykco4KGTBg
I agree 100%. No matter how "interesting" new content will be and how "fun" these new class designs (I'm talking about MM and Demo) will be if people won't enjoy them because they are literally not competitive in any bracket. There are many class design issues that need to be addressed. Even specs/classes that are doing well need attention.

1. Warrior Arms - he is doing fine but he is damage bot - literally 0 utility in PvP. Give him mass spell reflect for 1 spell and Intervene back so instead of damage bot you will have a great enjoyable skillful spec. For every pvp player pulling off prediction or any skillful play is extremely fun and rewarding thing.
2. Elemental Shaman - the thing that you did on ptr is nice to see but I wouldn't call it rework. You added few talents that we will probably forced to play with because they are too good. Dps issues aren't solved yet. I think that just simple 5 or more % damage buff is welcome. We just lack sustained damage.
3. Enhancement Shaman - maelstrom generation is an issue. Go back to Legion design - lower cost of stormstrike and it's cd but make proc ones cost 50% of normal ones so enh won't have situations when he can't use spells because of no maelstrom or that he can't use his maelstrom because he has cd on Stormstrike. Nerf enhancer's damage pvp talents: Ride the Lightning, Forked Lightning and Static Cling and buff it's overall damage. It will lower the gap between it's pve and pvp damage. Revert mana regen nerf - healing nerf was accurate and further nerfs to healing were not necessary. At the moment enhancement shamans consider using purge useless as they might lack mana in more important situation in the future. Mana regen nerf made enha mongo meele spec and was nerf to whole enha's utility - not only healing.
4. Holy Priest - to make this spec viable in arena you need to add any freedom effect to it, give it extra defence cd or other school healing spells. This spec overall is extremely cool to play but it requires you to hard cast a lot (highly vulnerable to interupts), is immobile (2 meeles connecting to you usually mean your death), can't do anything when it's locked on holy besides mind control. I feel that getting Fear as Holy is a good idea however as holy you don't want to push for fear ever because you are even more vulnerable to meeles. Maybe replacing Fear with other ranged CC spell would help. There are many things that may improve H priest in PvP.
5. F DK - it has great damage but what else? Nothing - literally nothing. 0 utility, mobility etc. Please consider adding any utility to this spec to make it more interesting and fun. I don't think that another immunity for slows, stuns, magic or whatever is the way to go. This spec needs something to make it more fun and viable but please don't make it another training to death terminator like in Legion.
6. Shadow Priest - priests consider their core spell - void form as not worth casting because they lose too much damage reduction. Make Shadow Form damage reduction working in Void Form as well. Legion Shadow Priest was 10x more fun than BfA one.

These are specs I know about there are definetely more - Warlocks, MM hunter etc. that need love. It's nice that you try to address it in 8.1 but it's a bit late. I think that the core of your game are classes and specs. Their design should be the major thing that you should care about in expansion creation process. People will have fun if their class/spec is fun to play. Nobody will have fun if he is on the bottom of the table in any content.
10/17/2018 08:05 AMPosted by Vertigo
Classes were all simple and boring until Cata / MoP and people refer to those as the "Good ol days".

The problem with wow is that the content outside of raids and dungeons is not fun. The classes are at least tolerable for the most part.


This is incorrect class depth was pretty high in bc I remember. I was a level 58 enhan sham taking out level 70 mages because I had grounding totem and stuff
10/17/2018 08:18 AMPosted by Vertigo
10/17/2018 08:09 AMPosted by Mafic
...

Interesting perspective because a lot of people found classes very interesting in WotLK with the introduction of glyphs and the old talent tree still intact.

Between WotLK - Cata -Mop I think that is when class design was at its zenith IMVHO.


Yes, cookie cutter specs where the majority of choices was just "increase spell damage by 1%" and the rotation consisted of spamming shadowbolt or wrath were much better. This is in reference to wrath and earlier. I will concede that Cata and MoP design was much better, but those expacs had better reward systems for the content in question.

This expac does not, and I do think there is something to be said for the type of content we're doing not changing. The game was younger in those days, and people were not as burnt out on raiding / dungeons as they are now.


If you were a strict DPS !@#$% sure. If you put some thought behind a build, you could very much pull off a tree that was capable of meeting the top build, while fielding some unique gameplay and attributes to set you apart from the rest of the pack.

For example, I fielded a build of resto Druid that had a higher emphasis on spirit direct throughput via healing touch. My numbers weren’t quite as nice as the rest of the healers, but I never ran out of mana in a fight. I was able to solo heal a 10 man Rotface pull in ICC. Our Priest, who was otherwise very skilled, messed up and got caught out in a pool of slime and died 30 seconds into the fight.

That’s not even to mention the hybrid specs that many players fielded to devastating effect in PvP. I don’t know any of them off the top of my head, but I’m sure some old hands would LOVE to tell us about them.

We lost our talent trees on the premise of class balance. I find it both hilariously ironic and abjectly disgusting that as we’ve been pruned and gutted over the years, we are left with the expansion with the worst class balance we’ve ever seen. Even Vanilla had more specs viable for play across the many modes of the game.

Scream about cookie cutter specs all you want, the game was fundamentally more balanced when we had them. MoP was the ONLY expansion where talent rows saw any successful class balancing.
10/17/2018 10:12 AMPosted by Vertigo
Please don't be facetious - there is literally not one spec in the game right now that only uses 2 abilities, not even MM.


actually MM currently does only use 2 spells, with the third being if there is literally no other choice. Due to the trait steady aim being the only thing that is viable, they spam steady shot x5, then aimed shot, then steady shot x 5 again, then aimed. And repeat. Occasionally you have to cast arcane shot if your aimed shot is down.

here's a link to the top parsing mythic uldir MM hunter. However all the top hunters have almost the exact same %- https://www.warcraftlogs.com/reports/Ffh4nTALpxw8j97c#fight=1&type=damage-done

aimed shot 44.2 % damage, cast 30 times
steady 19.3 % damage, cast 165 times
arcane 14.1% damage, cast 45 times
Autos - 11.4% damage, cast 120 times

I'd call that a 2-3 button spec
100% agree with the OP.

I opened wowhead as I do almost every day at some point and there were a lot of new articles, most of them talking about PTR things, if I recall correctly there were a few related to new armor models, some news about new mounts, some stuff about Legion reputation, yeah, yeah I didn't open any of those, all that is secondary to the one post about class changes.

Same goes for warfronts, island expeditions, etc.. Tbh no-one cares about them and probably 95%+ of the player base would gladly trade all that for better gameplay, class design and fixing annoying bugs in Dungeons and Raids. And I actually support the idea of introducing new things (like warfronts and Islands) but when there are such glaring issues with so many classes and specs this has to be much higher priority than anything else.


Tbh no-one cares about them and probably 95%+ of the player base would gladly trade all that for better gameplay, class design and fixing annoying bugs in Dungeons and Raids. Classes and specs this has to be much higher priority than anything else.


Quoted for Efficacy.
This thread is woefully ignorant. Class design and content design are going to be done by different teams.

There are different people working on encounters, different people working on story, different people working on classes, different people working on itemization, different people working on art...

New content can be pretty great, no one really liked being stuck in raid tiers for 14 months or something either.

That said, a lot of work still needs to be done with a lot of things, it's just if you're going to form an angry mob about it, you need a lot more pitchforks.
@ twisp I think the point tho is something that's been reiterated multiple times on these forums. It doesn't matter how cool new content is, or how often you release it, if the classes themselves inherently feel bad. And some classes/specs won't even get to see the new content since they are so nonviable.
10/17/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Silvermage
Unfortunately until Ion finds a better opportunity, we are stuck with his way. I just keep hoping another gaming company adores his work and hire's him away.


With his skill at pruning (aka decimating) classes, he would be great at developing for mobile games.
10/18/2018 05:22 PMPosted by Waywithwords
10/17/2018 08:56 AMPosted by Silvermage
Unfortunately until Ion finds a better opportunity, we are stuck with his way. I just keep hoping another gaming company adores his work and hire's him away.


With his skill at pruning (aka decimating) classes, he would be great at developing for mobile games.


We've deciding to update solitaire! There will now only be 2 aces instead of the original 4.

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