Mythic+ Azerite Armor Improvements

Tides of Vengeance PTR General Discussion
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10/19/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Lore
First, we’re adding a new (as yet unnamed) currency
Or you could re-purpose the useless sanguicells most of us have sitting in our bags doing absolutely nothing.
This is some amazing news, with light showing from the end of the tunnel for a similar system hopefully for pvp. Thank you bliz for the step in the right direction.

10/19/2018 10:46 PMPosted by Attrocity
10/19/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Lore
First, we’re adding a new (as yet unnamed) currency
Or you could re-purpose the useless sanguicells most of us have sitting in our bags doing absolutely nothing.

I'll see your sanguicells and raise you 500 expulsiom.
10/19/2018 10:46 PMPosted by Attrocity
10/19/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Lore
First, we’re adding a new (as yet unnamed) currency
Or you could re-purpose the useless sanguicells most of us have sitting in our bags doing absolutely nothing.


The problem is people already have them and a lot of people wouldn't have to continue to grind a new currency to buy more gear, that's why they're adding something new so we have to continue to play even more if we want to take advantage of it.

Every single thing they add in BfA is to pump up play time, not to make us happy.
This honestly feels like a bait and switch..... yes you're making it "possible" to get certain pieces but the way you describe it makes it sound like it'll take months. It's either save up and maybe get the piece while the tier is still relevant or submit to an even less consistent RNG system....at most it should take 3-4 weeks to get the piece we "need" from the vendor.

People see this and are like "Yay, we won!" but they didn't win a damn thing.....you just did the bare minimum to shut them up.
10/19/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Trinko
Also now NO ONE will trade their azerite armor in ever because they will want to scrap it for this currency.


10/19/2018 08:39 PMPosted by Morphasis
This will single handedly kill loot sharing for azerite armor. People will now hold onto pieces they do not need because they will scrap them for this new currency.


10/19/2018 08:52 PMPosted by Phonphon
exactly. Please don't make us make this decision of sharing a piece or going for our BIS.


10/19/2018 09:27 PMPosted by Sadìst
This also means less reason to give away our Azerite pieces to strangers and people who need it when we dont because "currency sorry"
WE ARE SCREWING OUR PLAYERS OVER
You are promoting more farming (all M0s, LFR, Normal, Heroic TIMES x number of alts) and to trade ZERO GEAR to people.
You are promoting us to farm more and help each other less. Promoting toxicity.

I totally understand the points you all make, but at the same time, sounds like you don't want Blizzard to allow this because you will be forced to make the choice to either be a generous player or a selfish player, and in turn risk promoting toxic attitudes amongst your fellow players. Is it safe to assume that given the choice, you'll always keep everything for yourselves?

I personally think it will promote better communities among players -- something akin to the communities players built during vanilla WoW, which is very much lamented by everyone who's sick of retail and waiting for classic -- once the base weeds out all the "toxic" players who are only looking out for themselves.

Guilds will work these things out themselves... probably at the cost of some members in the beginning, but eventually choices will be made that have the well being of the whole, over the well being of individuals.

For the rest, hard choices lie ahead mes amis.
10/19/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Encumber
So you are killing raiding?

No it is m+, which is a seperate path of gearing to raiding. Btw, many Bis pieces are in m+ anyways.
10/19/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Lore
– and we agree –


No you don't or you wouldn't have dragged your feet so long.

You agree with wallets and dropped subs, you don't agree with the playerbase or a lot of the issues would have been fixed in alpha/beta.
10/19/2018 10:51 PMPosted by Dvis
10/19/2018 08:12 PMPosted by Trinko
Also now NO ONE will trade their azerite armor in ever because they will want to scrap it for this currency.


10/19/2018 08:39 PMPosted by Morphasis
This will single handedly kill loot sharing for azerite armor. People will now hold onto pieces they do not need because they will scrap them for this new currency.


10/19/2018 08:52 PMPosted by Phonphon
exactly. Please don't make us make this decision of sharing a piece or going for our BIS.


10/19/2018 09:27 PMPosted by Sadìst
This also means less reason to give away our Azerite pieces to strangers and people who need it when we dont because "currency sorry"
WE ARE SCREWING OUR PLAYERS OVER
You are promoting more farming (all M0s, LFR, Normal, Heroic TIMES x number of alts) and to trade ZERO GEAR to people.
You are promoting us to farm more and help each other less. Promoting toxicity.

I totally understand the points you all make, but at the same time, sounds like you don't want Blizzard to allow this because you will be forced to make the choice to either be a generous player or a selfish player, and in turn risk promoting toxic attitudes amongst your fellow players. Is it safe to assume that given the choice, you'll always keep everything for yourselves?

I personally think it will promote better communities among players -- something akin to the communities players built during vanilla WoW, which is very much lamented by everyone who's sick of retail and waiting for classic -- once the base weeds out all the "toxic" players who are only looking out for themselves.

Guilds will work these things out themselves... probably at the cost of some members in the beginning, but eventually choices will be made that have the well being of the whole, over the well being of individuals.

For the rest, hard choices lie ahead mes amis.


And what about the player who convinces someone to trade them their "bis azerite piece" just so THEY can scrap it?

This whole system is going to cause more problems than solutions
Holy !@#$ M+ got PvP vendors before PvP lol.
...so we're back to special currency for gear.

I don't think it's a bad idea... but it seems like an awful lot of pain and vexation to end up back at a system that worked just fine 4 years ago.
10/19/2018 10:55 PMPosted by Jagdtiger
10/19/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Lore
– and we agree –


No you don't or you wouldn't have dragged your feet so long.

You agree with wallets and dropped subs, you don't agree with the playerbase or a lot of the issues would have been fixed in alpha/beta.


This. Furthermore this is a far cry from the badge/justice points system people asked for. We want to have a good incentive to run M+ over and over again. With this suggestion, we're still stuck waiting each week for the currency to drop from our cache. This time, we're simply purchasing a second cache.

This sounds an awful lot like what people first wanted: two items from the weekly M+ cache one of which should be azerite.
10/19/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Encumber
So you are killing raiding?
I feel like it's already dead lol just get 1 piece of raiding gear for the stacking buff and boom now you are ready to raid hardcore.
10/19/2018 09:43 PMPosted by Donathan
To those who are asking for PvP vendors;

The reason they got taken out of the game was due to the abolishment of PvP-only stats such as resilience and PvP power.

The current system is in place to have better parity with how gearing works in PvE since gear is *just* gear now, there is no pvp/pve distinction. There's a reason why when those stats disappeared, the dedicated PvP vendors also disappeared.

Given how fast gear in general is acquired these days, I really don't see a point to having a dedicated PvP vendor without some other larger system/looting changes that are a bit more expansive than what I feel they'd be willing to do in a patch.

This is a fix to ease Azerite item acquisition, which makes sense given that Azerite gear is supposed to fill in the void left by Artifact Weapons and Legion Legendaries.

Adding PvP vendors at this point wouldn't fix any, if anything it'd further the hilariously poor tuning of gear and item drops we already have.


The problem with your statement is this doesn't help PvPers, so what now PvPers are supposed to do mythics and get dungeon gear?

The other problem is your statement of 1 gear, however that is not reality. There is once again, multiple types of gear, Azerite from the Raid posses Azerite traits that only work in the raid, Azerite from PvP posses traits that are beneficial in PvP.

So while I agree, we likely wont get a Conquest vendor like the days of old back, We do need this system in Place for PvPers. In which we get currency out of our weekly chests, and the vendor sells us our PvP gear, in the same way this one does for Dungeon gear.

Also, we need it arguablly more. Gear disparity in a raid, is not as big of a deal as everyone makes it. 90% of the time, 90% of high end raiders way out gear the content, a few wrong traits will not cause them to wipe. However in the case of PvP, having the wrong traits can 100% net you a loss.

You also seem to lack any clue as to why we want vendors. As of now, we get conquest gear, however its a set piece every single week. This week we get XXX and then next week we get XXX and everyone gets XXX on that week assuming we are caught up.

However we also get random loot drops from PvP and from our chest. So I came back late, and am catching up in conquest, so right now for my lock and DH i am getting shoulders when I finish cap this week (I been double capping to catch up). My lock can use the shoulders, my DH doesn't need them, he actually already got perfect traited shoulders from an arena drop.

So thats fine no big deal, I can look past that, yes I dont need those shoulders whatever. Next comes Belt, and then Boots, my DH needs those, niceeeee upgrades are coming soon. However my lock already has perfect and higher ilvl pieces in those slots, so now I am 2 caps with dead items. As someone who is catching up, I already know what the rewards are and I know that I dont need them, but I have to cap through them anyway. This is a seriously demoralizes, its a turn off and makes you feel like why bother?

And here once again "Given how fast gear in general is acquired these days" you miss the mark. Ya maybe gear is easy to acquire in pve, but most PvPers do not do PvE and they shouldn't have to. Are you forced to do PvP for your gear? No and if you were, you would go bonkers, people go bonkers if a quest even made them go through the sewers in legion, they lost their damn minds.

So what does that leave us with? Well, I have done a tad arenas on my DH, while waiting for my friends to get leveled and get going. Few of us were high enough and did some, did about 30 3s, and 46 2s, 16 wins in 3s and I think 21 in 2s. That is a total of 37 rated wins, guess how many pieces that gave me? 1, 1 piece in 37 wins.

Granted I got pieces from boxes, but those dont scale with rating, they are not 355+, they cap at 330, so worthless. So gear is soo easy to come by, we can get a set piece that wont change, we can get a random piece from our weekly chest 1 time per week, and on extremely rare occasion we get a rating based drop for a win. That is not "Given how fast gear in general is acquired these days", ya maybe for PvErs it is, for PvPers that couldn't be farther from the truth. Especially when, we cant spam M+, we cant spam anything, we get a chest, thats set 1 time per week, and we get our conquest also 1 piece per week, and then we get the extremely rare piece thats a random drop.

While you get, LFR, Normal, Herioc, Mythic, M+, M0, Emissary, WB, Bonus rolls for a lot of that. Your right, gear is very easy to get, for PvE Players...........

If you are going to try and comment on PvP problems, I suggest you know what they are first, because its glaringly clear you have zero idea. Just go slay some dragons and leave PvP problems to the PvP community.
10/19/2018 03:01 PMPosted by Lore

First, we’re adding a new (as yet unnamed) currency, which you’ll earn from your weekly Mythic+ chest as well as from scrapping (or disenchanting) epic-quality Azerite Armor. This currency is rewarded in addition to the item in the chest (which can no longer be an Azerite piece), and the amount you earn will scale up based on the highest level Keystone you’ve completed. For example, completing a level 10 Keystone will reward you with about three times as much as clearing a level 7. Similarly, scrapping higher-item-level Azerite pieces will give you significantly higher amounts of this currency than lower-level pieces.

To spend that currency, we’re bringing back an old friend: Thaumaturge Vashreen. He’ll have two main types of items for sale. The first are caches that reward a random dungeon Azerite Armor piece for a given slot (helm, shoulders, or chest). They’ll be separated out by item level as well (at 355, 370, and 385), with higher item level caches requiring significantly more currency to purchase.

But we recognize that with six or more options per slot, this may still not be enough control for high-end players who want to be able to work towards a specific piece that perfectly complements their build. Thus, Vashreen will also offer Item Level 385 versions of the specific dungeon Azerite Armor pieces for each class, sold at a premium.

We’re still nailing down the exact numbers, but our goal for tuning this new currency is that you’ll be able to purchase one of the Azerite caches that lines up roughly with the item level of the gear you’re getting from your Mythic+ runs every two or three weeks, with the specific 385 pieces as long-term goals for top players.


So 8.1 is released, then if your targeting a specific 385 piece it will take potentially 4-6 weeks to purchase said item or gamble by buying 2-3 slot pieces and hoping you get the one you want. If you gamble and don't get the piece you are after and then decided to buy a specific piece it could take you 2-3 months. This is pretty much the same result as the current system. All the while you have no chance of getting any Azerite at all from M+ while you wait.

Availability of Azerite is the main issue affecting players, increase the availability and the issue of targeting specific pieces is reduced. If I was receiving an Azerite piece every week I'm happy to deal with bad luck, because at the least some of the Azerite pieces will enable me to play off specs more effectively or give me more options for my main spec.

I'm not sure if this is going to fix anything and it's obvious that today the development team is more focused on working out ways to keep people playing than actually providing fun and enjoyable ways to be rewarded from your in game efforts.
Well, the forums ate my post... so I'm going to write it again but much shorter, because screw it.

Dear blizzard, please stop with the Weekend at Bernie's thing you have going on with azerite armor. Its a bad design, just let it die and stay dead. For once, just for once, realize in advance that you've made a mistake and sunset this crap EARLY rather than making this entire expansion about supporting this bad design so that you end up talking about it 3 years down the road looking back saying "maybe we screwed up."

The traits are boring passives the vast majority of the time, they offer nothing new or interesting for the player, it all just "happens" and you don't think about it. But they DO add a level of frustration about getting the "right" traits that give players the biggest numbers, hence why you have everyone crying about the design one way or another, so much so that you're now adding new vendors and currencies to support this crap already.

Just stop it. Let it die. Get rid of the traits. Make armor give secondaries again. And if you INSIST on having something tied to the necklace so that we care about leveling it up, then for god sake give us WEAPONS tied to it again (specifically give weapons an ilvl RANGE they'll level up with the necklace with so that as we improve it, we improve the weapons, but not so much so that a maxed out necklace will give us maxed out weapons if the only weapons we got were from a normal 5man dungeon.. just give them a level range/max level they'll go up to in conjunction with the necklace and maybe make it tied to whatever our mainhand weapon is to cut DWers or shield users some freaking slack... that way you still want to be looking for new weapons each tier and GETTING a new weapon that has a higher base than your previous weapons is still an upgrade overall). Tie the weapon ilvl to the necklace (obviously not scaling as high/fast as the necklace is already) and forget about the traits. or just give us traits that show up on each weapon but that are always the same 3-4 choices per trait ring rather than some rng crap, so that you CAN make them more impactful because everyone will have the same 3-4 to pick from on each ring of the trait tree.

But you don't even have to do THAT. Just get rid of azerite armor, sunset the garbage design, admit it wasn't working out and was worth more trouble than it was worth to try to prop it up the entire expansion, AND MOVE ON WITH YOUR LIVES. If you insist on doing something with the necklace, give IT trait rings, or take my idea and make it tied to weapons in a better overall way that takes RNG out and gives you room to make better traits that MATTER and aren't just number inflaters for the min/maxers to cry over.

Thats all I really ask. For once, just admit early on that something isnt going to work out, and scrap it and try something else. It CANNOT be any worse than continuing on this course and forcing this dysfunctional crap on the players.
So scrapping higher ilvl armors is going to be a problem. Say down the line I run a BoD heroic pug when I'm already in mythic BoD azerite gear. Heroic BoD azerite gear drops for me. Now, I'm going to want to destroy that over give it to a random pug because I need that currency to buy items. I don't see this going over well in mythic as well for people who want specific pieces.

This system also gives an advantage to players who do all forms of content such as PvP. Destroying PvP azerite gear for this badges is going to give you an edge.

In reality, it may be negligible, but perceptions in WoW don't work that way.
10/20/2018 12:09 AMPosted by Plyte
Now, I'm going to want to destroy that over give it to a random pug because I need that currency to buy items.

There's nothing wrong with this. They can do the same.
Disenchanting and scrapping?? so what you are saying is even if you don't mythic+ you can still aim for Azerite armor just at a slower pace

Cool :)
Well, the forums ate my post... so I'm going to write it again but much shorter, because screw it.

...

Thats all I really ask. For once, just admit early on that something isnt going to work out, and scrap it and try something else. It CANNOT be any worse than continuing on this course and forcing this dysfunctional crap on the players.

This was the much shorter version? o.O

Try as we may, they're not going to scrap the Azerite system, or fundamentally change the way the necklace works. It's far too embedded in BFA's subsystems that changing it now would effectively kill the expansion, or result in a 16mo content drought that has no promise of being better than this. Remember, doubling down on a bad system always has the chance to producing a worse system.
I just read Puzle's rant and...quite frankly I couldn't agree more....this system blows compared to the last expansion's system. Every day I lament the loss of tier and my artifact weapon....it's just super !@#$ty to have enjoyed Legion so much and BFA so little...I barely feel like my character is getting anywhere when I get a new azerite piece.

I know bringing tier back will make the art team have to design 24 sets instead of 8 again (which I've long been suspicious was the real reason behind this crap...saving design time) but that's what your players loved....this new system is...quite frankly...making lose interest in the game I've loved for almost half my life now...it's the end of Cata all over again only there's no redeeming this on the horizon, enough is enough.

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