Spirit Bomb: Optimal or Required?

Demon Hunter
I've heard that Spirit Bomb is the defacto choice of the talent tier.

It makes sense. It's a controlled burst of healing and damage compared to the RNG of Gluttony.

That said, I am still getting used to tanking and it's one more button to press, one more skill to key bind when I'm all out of good key-binds and just one more thing to manage in general.

If I stick to the basics and do those well, am I still a decent Vengance tank? or am I realistically playing a gimped spec without the inclusion of Spirit Bomb?
Spirit Bomb, as it stands, is absolutely a necessity.

Pain is pretty much a useless resource. Souls are the big resource you'll use, and Spirit Bomb eats up to five of them. Each fragment heals for 8% of damage taken, so Spirit Bomb heals for 32-40% of damage you've just taken (you'll usually be casting this when you have 4 or 5 fragments). Spirit Bomb essentially does 2.5x the healing of Soul Cleave, much better damage, and leaves enemies debuffed with Frailty, making your self-healing a lot easier to maintain.

In essence, it's not really one more thing to manage because Soul Cleave won't need to be managed at all right now.
10/26/2018 08:15 PMPosted by Maerylla
In essence, it's not really one more thing to manage because Soul Cleave won't need to be managed at all right now.


Is there any reason to use Soul Cleave at all then?

Could I simply remove it from my bar and put Spirit Bomb in its place?
Yes, you could remove Soul Cleave - you'd notice a slight difference in your performance, but it wouldn't be substantial.

There are really only three reasons to use Soul Cleave at all while you're talented into Spirit Bomb.
- You might choose Void Reaver as your 110 talent, in which case you'll need to Soul Cleave periodically to keep up the debuff.
- You might drop Fracture for Feed the Demon on specific high-mitigation fights. Spirit Bomb is still preferable, but sometimes these builds choose Gluttony instead.
- Even if you're using the standard build, you'll find yourself at times with an abundance of pain, no souls, and waiting an extra GCD or more for Fracture to recharge. You won't always be able to fill the gap with Immo, Brand, or a sigil, so it's useful to get into the practice of hitting Soul Cleave right after Spirit Bomb as a means of smoothing your rotation.

So no, it's not essential, but often you've got nothing better to do and it's better than auto-attacking.
10/26/2018 07:39 PMPosted by Punstoppable
It makes sense. It's a controlled burst of healing and damage compared to the RNG of Gluttony.
The controlled burst doesn't matter too, too much in the grand scheme of things. The primary reason is that it's just a metric ton of damage that you otherwise don't have access to, and a fair bit of healing as well. The controlled aspect of it helps, but it's not the main reason.

10/26/2018 08:15 PMPosted by Maerylla
Pain is pretty much a useless resource. Souls are the big resource you'll use, and Spirit Bomb eats up to five of them. Each fragment heals for 8% of damage taken, so Spirit Bomb heals for 32-40% of damage you've just taken (you'll usually be casting this when you have 4 or 5 fragments). Spirit Bomb essentially does 2.5x the healing of Soul Cleave, much better damage, and leaves enemies debuffed with Frailty, making your self-healing a lot easier to maintain.
You're going to consume your souls either way, so the only difference there is the controlled timing of it as mentioned above. The Fraility debuff is the extra healing that Spirit Bomb brings over Soul Cleave.

10/26/2018 09:35 PMPosted by Punstoppable
Is there any reason to use Soul Cleave at all then?

Could I simply remove it from my bar and put Spirit Bomb in its place?
As the poster above me stated, there are free spaces in your rotation where you can fit in a Soul Cleave without consuming souls and letting something more important sit off cooldown. Throw Glaive and Soul Cleave are both pitiful damage abilities that at least do *something* when you otherwise would have an empty GCD. Both of them are used fairly often in the grand scheme of things, far too often to be left unbound. They're part of your core rotation which is like 6 buttons long; you shouldn't have problems keybinding that much.
I use a non-SB build and I usually do more healing than healers in the M+ I run (total healing). I ran a +8 FH yesterday for fun and had 12.85m healing while the shaman healer had 11.5m. I'm also super tanky and can just stand and tank mobs rather than kite (most of the time).

Everyone will tell you SB is necessary, but it's not. It's a bandwagon trait.

If you're doing a consistent 10k dps with SB, you will get 1k hps with fratality. Feast of Souls, a "dead talent", almost gives you the same hps (5.2k over 6 seconds for me--almost 1k per second).
10/27/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Ayypapi
I use a non-SB build and I usually do more healing than healers in the M+ I run (total healing). I ran a +8 FH yesterday for fun and had 12.85m healing while the shaman healer had 11.5m. I'm also super tanky and can just stand and tank mobs rather than kite (most of the time).

Everyone will tell you SB is necessary, but it's not. It's a bandwagon trait.

If you're doing a consistent 10k dps with SB, you will get 1k hps with fratality. Feast of Souls, a "dead talent", almost gives you the same hps (5.2k over 6 seconds for me--almost 1k per second).


Ayypapi, stop encouraging others to be bad just because you are. We've had this conversation before. Gluttony is terrible (and you're massively mistaken about it, meta provides no leech baseline, the armor bonus is only of middling benefit because of the incredibly harsh DR on armor, and it only procs ~once per minute regardless of how many souls you consume), and Fel Dev isn't any better.

Soul Bomb does massively more DPS, especially AoE, and that's extremely relevant in particular in M+, where you're racing against a timer. You are objectively and inarguably hampering your groups by insisting on your terrible "but I know better than all the mythic raiders! They're all just lemmings!" Gluttony/Felblade spec.

And lets be honest, the highest key you've completed inside the timer as a tank is an 8, and you were only under the timer by ~3 minutes. Your only 10 as a tank took more than double the timer to complete. You're not exactly in a stellar position to be calling the body of vengeance tanks idiots for using Soulbomb instead of your craptastic spec.

Oh, and if you out-DPSed the healer, that means the healer was terrible, not that you were good.
10/27/2018 10:25 AMPosted by Xaedys
10/27/2018 09:54 AMPosted by Ayypapi
I use a non-SB build and I usually do more healing than healers in the M+ I run (total healing). I ran a +8 FH yesterday for fun and had 12.85m healing while the shaman healer had 11.5m. I'm also super tanky and can just stand and tank mobs rather than kite (most of the time).

Everyone will tell you SB is necessary, but it's not. It's a bandwagon trait.

If you're doing a consistent 10k dps with SB, you will get 1k hps with fratality. Feast of Souls, a "dead talent", almost gives you the same hps (5.2k over 6 seconds for me--almost 1k per second).


Ayypapi, stop encouraging others to be bad just because you are. We've had this conversation before. Gluttony is terrible (and you're massively mistaken about it, meta provides no leech baseline, the armor bonus is only of middling benefit because of the incredibly harsh DR on armor, and it only procs ~once per minute regardless of how many souls you consume), and Fel Dev isn't any better.

Soul Bomb does massively more DPS, especially AoE, and that's extremely relevant in particular in M+, where you're racing against a timer. You are objectively and inarguably hampering your groups by insisting on your terrible "but I know better than all the mythic raiders! They're all just lemmings!" Gluttony/Felblade spec.

And lets be honest, the highest key you've completed inside the timer as a tank is an 8, and you were only under the timer by ~3 minutes. Your only 10 as a tank took more than double the timer to complete. You're not exactly in a stellar position to be calling the body of vengeance tanks idiots for using Soulbomb instead of your craptastic spec.

Oh, and if you out-DPSed the healer, that means the healer was terrible, not that you were good.


Did not read.

But no.

And I've 2 keyed multiple 8's.
10/27/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Ayypapi
Did not read.

But no.

And I've 2 keyed multiple 8's.


As DPS, sure. As a tank, the best you've done is a single +8 with only a couple minutes to spare. And at 374 ilevel, a +8 is pretty pitiful, tbh.
10/27/2018 10:54 AMPosted by Xaedys
10/27/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Ayypapi
Did not read.

But no.

And I've 2 keyed multiple 8's.


As DPS, sure. As a tank, the best you've done is a single +8 with only a couple minutes to spare. And at 374 ilevel, a +8 is pretty pitiful, tbh.


Because I haven't tanked as many, because I was letting my friends tank before I found this build--which actually made me like tanking? Unfortunately I'm now quitting the game. It's boring, it's bad, and the community (i.e. people like you) is toxic.

I mean look at this... I'm promoting a build I like, because it's easy and efficient, and saying SB isn't as good as the bandwagon says it is, and you're actually trying to insult me as a player. THAT is what's pathetic.

Spirit bomb is bad. It has the capability to do a lot more DPS, yes, but good luck, because in high M+ you're kiting (especially with a SB build, because it's far less tanky). You'll end up doing the same or even less DPS than with my build, because while I can sit and tank, you have to be jumping around kiting, spamming sigils, and trying not to die in 0.5 seconds on most pulls.

Not to mention that, for single target, the cookie cutter spirit bomb build does absolutely NO healing whatsoever. It's like 3-4k hps (this is being generous) while mine is 6-7k hps and the longer you attack the higher it goes (tested on the dungeoneer dummy in boralus). In addition to that, SB single target build dps is no higher than my build. Might even be lower.

I wish I would've tested more early on rather than listen to the bandwagoners. I HATED the SB build with a passion. Now I've found a build I like, but I'm quitting.

And I just want to reiterate...

At a sustained 10k dps with a SB build (good luck) you will be getting 1k extra hps from fratality (10% of your dps heals you). The talent labeled horrible by the DH community--feast of souls--which is a super easy to use because it is just a passive added to soul cleave, literally gives you 9/10 the same hps as fratality would at a sustained 10k dps.
10/27/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Ayypapi
10/27/2018 10:54 AMPosted by Xaedys
...

As DPS, sure. As a tank, the best you've done is a single +8 with only a couple minutes to spare. And at 374 ilevel, a +8 is pretty pitiful, tbh.


Because I haven't tanked as many, because I was letting my friends tank before I found this build--which actually made me like tanking? Unfortunately I'm now quitting the game. It's boring, it's bad, and the community (i.e. people like you) is toxic.

I mean look at this... I'm promoting a build I like, because it's easy and efficient, and saying SB isn't as good as the bandwagon says it is, and you're actually trying to insult me as a player. THAT is what's pathetic.

Spirit bomb is bad. It has the capability to do a lot more DPS, yes, but good luck, because in high M+ you're kiting (especially with a SB build, because it's far less tanky). You'll end up doing the same or even less DPS than with my build, because while I can sit and tank, you have to be jumping around kiting, spamming sigils, and trying not to die in 0.5 seconds on most pulls.

Not to mention that, for single target, the cookie cutter spirit bomb build does absolutely NO healing whatsoever. It's like 3-4k hps (this is being generous) while mine is 6-7k hps and the longer you attack the higher it goes (tested on the dungeoneer dummy in boralus). In addition to that, SB single target build dps is no higher than my build. Might even be lower.

I wish I would've tested more early on rather than listen to the bandwagoners. I HATED the SB build with a passion. Now I've found a build I like, but I'm quitting.

And I just want to reiterate...

At a sustained 10k dps with a SB build (good luck) you will be getting 1k extra hps from fratality (10% of your dps heals you). The talent labeled horrible by the DH community--feast of souls--which is a super easy to use because it is just a passive added to soul cleave, literally gives you 9/10 the same hps as fratality would at a sustained 10k dps.


Oh god this guy again. It was fun to have you around as a living, breathing meme.

But to the OP, no you don’t have to use Spirit Bomb to be a viable tank. I’m sure you could clear most of the content you desire just fine without it.

However, it is ABSOLUTELY sub-optimal to not use it.

It’s not that spirit Bomb is super powerful or anything, it’s that Soul Cleave sucks as a spender and Gluttony/Fel Devastation as competing talents are mediocre at best.
10/27/2018 11:59 AMPosted by Uncleslam
10/27/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Ayypapi
...

Because I haven't tanked as many, because I was letting my friends tank before I found this build--which actually made me like tanking? Unfortunately I'm now quitting the game. It's boring, it's bad, and the community (i.e. people like you) is toxic.

I mean look at this... I'm promoting a build I like, because it's easy and efficient, and saying SB isn't as good as the bandwagon says it is, and you're actually trying to insult me as a player. THAT is what's pathetic.

Spirit bomb is bad. It has the capability to do a lot more DPS, yes, but good luck, because in high M+ you're kiting (especially with a SB build, because it's far less tanky). You'll end up doing the same or even less DPS than with my build, because while I can sit and tank, you have to be jumping around kiting, spamming sigils, and trying not to die in 0.5 seconds on most pulls.

Not to mention that, for single target, the cookie cutter spirit bomb build does absolutely NO healing whatsoever. It's like 3-4k hps (this is being generous) while mine is 6-7k hps and the longer you attack the higher it goes (tested on the dungeoneer dummy in boralus). In addition to that, SB single target build dps is no higher than my build. Might even be lower.

I wish I would've tested more early on rather than listen to the bandwagoners. I HATED the SB build with a passion. Now I've found a build I like, but I'm quitting.

And I just want to reiterate...

At a sustained 10k dps with a SB build (good luck) you will be getting 1k extra hps from fratality (10% of your dps heals you). The talent labeled horrible by the DH community--feast of souls--which is a super easy to use because it is just a passive added to soul cleave, literally gives you 9/10 the same hps as fratality would at a sustained 10k dps.


Oh god this guy again. It was fun to have you around as a living, breathing meme.

But to the OP, no you don’t have to use Spirit Bomb to be a viable tank. I’m sure you could clear most of the content you desire just fine without it.

However, it is ABSOLUTELY sub-optimal to not use it.

It’s not that spirit Bomb is super powerful or anything, it’s that Soul Cleave sucks as a spender and Gluttony/Fel Devastation as competing talents are mediocre at best.


Looks like you guys are just full of ad hominem and aren't refuting his arguments with videos or real numbers at all lol. I think I'm going to try his build just because you guys are dicks.
10/27/2018 12:03 PMPosted by Callmedaddi
Looks like you guys are just full of ad hominem and aren't refuting his arguments with videos or real numbers at all lol. I think I'm going to try his build just because you guys are dicks.


Have fun. It's pretty bad, but is still technically functional. Don't try it during a skittish week, though, you'll fail horribly.

And the reason we're so caustic with Ayypapi is because we've had this conversation with him before across several threads where I and many others pointed out in detail and with data that his build was terrible, and he just doubled down.
10/27/2018 12:03 PMPosted by Callmedaddi
10/27/2018 11:59 AMPosted by Uncleslam
...

Oh god this guy again. It was fun to have you around as a living, breathing meme.

But to the OP, no you don’t have to use Spirit Bomb to be a viable tank. I’m sure you could clear most of the content you desire just fine without it.

However, it is ABSOLUTELY sub-optimal to not use it.

It’s not that spirit Bomb is super powerful or anything, it’s that Soul Cleave sucks as a spender and Gluttony/Fel Devastation as competing talents are mediocre at best.


Looks like you guys are just full of ad hominem and aren't refuting his arguments with videos or real numbers at all lol. I think I'm going to try his build just because you guys are dicks.


You want proof?

Look at the M+ leaderboards and top Mythic raid parses for VDHs.

Theres your proof.
10/27/2018 12:03 PMPosted by Callmedaddi
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Oh god this guy again. It was fun to have you around as a living, breathing meme.

But to the OP, no you don’t have to use Spirit Bomb to be a viable tank. I’m sure you could clear most of the content you desire just fine without it.

However, it is ABSOLUTELY sub-optimal to not use it.

It’s not that spirit Bomb is super powerful or anything, it’s that Soul Cleave sucks as a spender and Gluttony/Fel Devastation as competing talents are mediocre at best.


Looks like you guys are just full of ad hominem and aren't refuting his arguments with videos or real numbers at all lol. I think I'm going to try his build just because you guys are dicks.
you silly billy, you know we can see you and ayypapi both have exactly 487 posts?
<span class="truncated">...</span>

Looks like you guys are just full of ad hominem and aren't refuting his arguments with videos or real numbers at all lol. I think I'm going to try his build just because you guys are dicks.

you silly billy, you know we can see you and ayypapi both have exactly 487 posts?


Gottem!!

Also they both have 100k HK achieve on 7/30/16...

Same post count.
Same account bound achievement.

If I wasnt a huntard I'd say they are the same person!!
10/27/2018 11:47 AMPosted by Ayypapi
10/27/2018 10:54 AMPosted by Xaedys
...

As DPS, sure. As a tank, the best you've done is a single +8 with only a couple minutes to spare. And at 374 ilevel, a +8 is pretty pitiful, tbh.


Because I haven't tanked as many, because I was letting my friends tank before I found this build--which actually made me like tanking? Unfortunately I'm now quitting the game. It's boring, it's bad, and the community (i.e. people like you) is toxic.

I mean look at this... I'm promoting a build I like, because it's easy and efficient, and saying SB isn't as good as the bandwagon says it is, and you're actually trying to insult me as a player. THAT is what's pathetic.

Spirit bomb is bad. It has the capability to do a lot more DPS, yes, but good luck, because in high M+ you're kiting (especially with a SB build, because it's far less tanky). You'll end up doing the same or even less DPS than with my build, because while I can sit and tank, you have to be jumping around kiting, spamming sigils, and trying not to die in 0.5 seconds on most pulls.

Not to mention that, for single target, the cookie cutter spirit bomb build does absolutely NO healing whatsoever. It's like 3-4k hps (this is being generous) while mine is 6-7k hps and the longer you attack the higher it goes (tested on the dungeoneer dummy in boralus). In addition to that, SB single target build dps is no higher than my build. Might even be lower.

I wish I would've tested more early on rather than listen to the bandwagoners. I HATED the SB build with a passion. Now I've found a build I like, but I'm quitting.

And I just want to reiterate...

At a sustained 10k dps with a SB build (good luck) you will be getting 1k extra hps from fratality (10% of your dps heals you). The talent labeled horrible by the DH community--feast of souls--which is a super easy to use because it is just a passive added to soul cleave, literally gives you 9/10 the same hps as fratality would at a sustained 10k dps.


Dude plz stop.

Your build is trash.

Its proven by logs, maths and gameplay.

Enjoy it ? Cool, stop telling other people it good when its bad.
10/27/2018 10:47 AMPosted by Ayypapi
And I've 2 keyed multiple 8's.

This is the best. Using +8s as goalposts is just incredible.
10/27/2018 08:53 PMPosted by Náiléf
you silly billy, you know we can see you and ayypapi both have exactly 487 posts?


Now they both have 490. Lol that's kinda sad. Ayypapi also unsubbed (did one of those GD unsub threads), so idk why he's still hanging around the forums.

Papi, everyone on the DH forums knows you like Gluttony. That's great man! You do you if that's what you enjoy. However, your adamant stance that is is better than Spirit Bomb is provably wrong. That's where the friction with other forum goers starts.

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/20769747951#post-1
Still new to tanking, so I don't need to soul cleave? Just shear and spirit bomb?

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