BlizzCon 2018 Spoilers/Discussion Thread

Wyrmrest Accord
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11/03/2018 12:12 PMPosted by Julliven
I enjoyed that the cinematic made the king of the alliance a traitor to his people. Could you imagine if word got out that he let a Horde Overlord free? A Horde Overlord that cleaved through countless Alliance?

Like sure, Saurfang is a traitor to the Horde but damn Anduin. It's like you hate your people.


it also appears to be portraying the Alliance as unable to actually win

they're out of professional soldiers and will be running on conscripted farmers next

Anduin even admits he can't win against Sylvanas
11/03/2018 12:37 PMPosted by Balghur
11/03/2018 12:12 PMPosted by Julliven
I enjoyed that the cinematic made the king of the alliance a traitor to his people. Could you imagine if word got out that he let a Horde Overlord free? A Horde Overlord that cleaved through countless Alliance?

Like sure, Saurfang is a traitor to the Horde but damn Anduin. It's like you hate your people.


it also appears to be portraying the Alliance as unable to actually win

they're out of professional soldiers and will be running on conscripted farmers next

Anduin even admits he can't win against Sylvanas


Gosh, what if Saurfang becomes leader and swiftly attacks the Alliance back. A Horde that likes their leader as one army against farmers
11/03/2018 12:36 AMPosted by Liotuse
11/02/2018 11:53 PMPosted by Enrik
I don't really care what they do with the franchise at this point since Path of Exile has already become its true 'successor,' but let's call a spade a spade.

So we agree Diablo 3 wasn't a cash grab, just an unfortunate path taken to try and innovate.
I think they started development with the idea of innovation in mind, but the moment the game became embroiled in development hell and launched with a Real Money Auctionhouse is the moment it became a cash grab.

In no way was that ever a good idea, nor was it consumer-friendly.
Of course in universe the Alliance would be losing.

Orcs might as well be death cultists looking for a great way to die and are about the size of a human and a half.

Tauren are thick pelted and built like brick outhouses.

Forsaken can be glued back together (and they can forcibly make new ones, one of the big points of contention lately).

Goblins breed like rabbits and already have a life expectency so low that self-exploding sappers is a totally valid and pretty common job.

Also the Horde's de facto warmaster and the second in command war master on average don't care what happens to the troops under their command, leading them to be able to pull off some pretty spectacularly "Eh, we weren't using those guys anyway" maneuvers nobody sane would be expecting.

Like... we were losing against the Lich King / Scourge too which is most of those traits combined, that's why we had to team up and get a bunch of neutral factions involved.

Like IDK if anyone else realized this but that was kind of the whole point of Warcraft 3 was all the races have their own strengths and that's why when facing the end of the world we end up needing each other but I know the Red v. Blue narrative must remain the sole focus of life.
If the Alliance losing means they have to pull in more neutral factions, I'm all for it.

It always annoys me when neutral factions are made completely irrelevant for entire expansions because they aren't one of the Big Two.
Said it before, I'll say it again...I wouldn't object to Stormwind being occupied territory by the end of the expansion and the Alliance driven to the fringes of its own territory. Ironforge and the Exodar being besieged enclaves.

If we're going to do the faction conflict again, let's end on a WarCraft I note.
11/03/2018 11:45 AMPosted by Typheous
No no developer does that unless they want a hate train.
Fallout Shelter, the last mobile game announced by a Triple A company, was announced adjacent to other products. That was developed in house.
Command and Conquer Rivals, announced by EA, was developed in house and still got shatted on.

I could go on. Diablo Immortal isn't an in-house game, it's a reskin. Even during the IGN review all Wyatt brought up was all the work the art team was doing for it.

If Blizzard came out and said "Hey this is being developed by Team X, trust us guys you liked Hearthstone," I would be okay.
If Blizzard came out and said "Hey this is being taken care of with the utmost care and we know you guys are worried about quality" I would be a bit better about. No it's being developed by Netease, a company with a worse reputation that EA and Ubisoft combined.

Blizzard was shocked at the reaction. It speaks to how bad Blizzard has become and how isolated they are from their playerbase.

This was not how to announce a new mobile game. There needs to be a review of their marketing strategies at very least.
It's not all bad. That they farmed this out to a Chinese company indicates there is a good chance they're working on a real Diablo game in house.
11/03/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Opherial
Of course in universe the Alliance would be losing.


i dont really think theres a reason for it at all its just the writers want it to be that way
11/03/2018 02:47 PMPosted by Balghur
11/03/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Opherial
Of course in universe the Alliance would be losing.


i dont really think theres a reason for it at all its just the writers want it to be that way
The last time I saw people try to make a realistic accounting of forces the consensus was the Alliance had a huge advantage due to the Horde's Kalimdor forces being decimated at SoO.

Casualties at Lordaeron seemed fairly even unless we were suppose to believe that many more Alliance were caught up in the destruction of the city at the end. The only other thing that would really explain a horde advantage would be Mag'har orcs pouring in form AU Draenor.

Again, not that this game ever takes such things seriously.
You also have to factor in potential Legion causalities in the wake of SoO. We were told the Incursions on Azeroth didn't stop just because we stopped getting notifications about them (Personally I kind of wish they'd been left on for the whole expansion but details). I'd assume a goodly number of Alliance forces were fed to that infernal meat grinder.

The Horde has the Mag'har and now Sylvanas is pretty much raising up forces in job lots with no restriction on race, so their replenishment is higher all things considered.

Though in all fairness, the Blood Elves are hemorrhaging a lot of their populations recently. Between the Void Elves and the San'layn acolytes poor Loth'remar is probably wandering around Silvermoon wondering where everyone went.
11/03/2018 03:04 PMPosted by Kazimor
The last time I saw people try to make a realistic accounting of forces the consensus was the Alliance had a huge advantage due to the Horde's Kalimdor forces being decimated at SoO.


pretty much

11/03/2018 03:04 PMPosted by Kazimor
Casualties at Lordaeron seemed fairly even unless we were suppose to believe that many more Alliance were caught up in the destruction of the city at the end. The only other thing that would really explain a horde advantage would be Mag'har orcs pouring in form AU Draenor.


i would surmise that more Alliance forces died at SoL due to the fact that Sylvanas had planned it to be a trap and Brill was basically given up, there might have been a token force at RoL but it was a difficult point to take and even afterwards the Plague probably wiped out any attackers in the area and then spread to Brill, the entire Alliance attacking force likely died

in terms of military leadership Anduin probably would have been court martialed and executed or imprisoned or politically removed from ever leading an army again if this were in a modern military, but we live in a very high-fantasy world where things like numbers, supplies, terrain, weather (basically everything that composes the science and art of war Clausewitz and company wrote about)

even without taking the casualties into account the Alliance was unable to occupy the territory due to it being an obvious trap that Anduin fell for, the only end result was a destroyed city, meanwhile the Horde's campaign in Darkshore resulted in a destroyed city and an occupied swath of territory, they achieved more in military terms than the Alliance did with the invasion of Lordaeron

11/03/2018 03:04 PMPosted by Kazimor
Again, not that this game ever takes such things seriously


it doesn't, even before the SoO the Horde's armies should not have been able to recover so quickly from things like WOTLK, it goes for the Alliance as well, where the only faction that should remotely be at high strength enough to even field multiple armies would be the Dwarves, the Kingdom of Stormwind had been burned to the ground maybe a generation ago, the Gnomes of Gnomeregan were a fraction of a nuked city, the Night Elves separated themselves by gender to the point where they likely could not breed for thousands of years and even then you had the War in AQ and Legion invasion prior to deal with

the maths dont add up and nobody should really be fighting anybody
11/03/2018 03:04 PMPosted by Kazimor
11/03/2018 02:47 PMPosted by Balghur
...

i dont really think theres a reason for it at all its just the writers want it to be that way
The last time I saw people try to make a realistic accounting of forces the consensus was the Alliance had a huge advantage due to the Horde's Kalimdor forces being decimated at SoO.

Casualties at Lordaeron seemed fairly even unless we were suppose to believe that many more Alliance were caught up in the destruction of the city at the end. The only other thing that would really explain a horde advantage would be Mag'har orcs pouring in form AU Draenor.

Again, not that this game ever takes such things seriously.


Had that taken into account past losses to the human forces? Also this is probably specifically Stormwind's army, which they put on every front line everywhere there's war they can reach, always putting themselves center-stage.

The Horde's forces, are being supplemented by the vast numbers of undead everywhere they go now that Sylvanas is warchief.

As for Lordaeron, throughout that battle Sylvanas was having the Horde ordered to retreat instead of hold their ground, and even some of those who got hit by the blight were healed and pulled out of the gas if they weren't dead already, those not in the blight were deployed with gas masks. The Horde was given the appearance of buckling, because there was no serious attempt to hold the city in the strategy behind it. The whole point was to kill as many Alliance soldiers and leaders as possible in one move. The leaders were saved by Jaina, but they were alone in the throne room when the blight went off, the Alliance had spread across the ruins of Lordaeron and surrounding fields with the Horde retreating beneath the city.

I don't think the Horde has a major advantage, but the fact that no attempt was made to hold Undercity means the losses would not have been equal. And so the years of war before this, combined with a trap designed to look like the Horde losing a siege, leading to the Alliance clearing out the ruins section by section, puts the Alliance in what at least from outside the Horde looks like a worse position.

All this said, Anduin may be lacking enough intel to recognize the Horde isn't doing any better with its soldiers, worse, considering that in order to be having the same problems a lot more of its population would have to be depleted, given how few of its members want to be civilians.
That's one thing I feel WoD got right - the fact it wasn't the Alliance or Horde military facing off against the Iron Horde, but a force of irregulars because neither side had the manpower to mount a serious defense.

Heck, it's easy to forget now but WoD was supposed to be a suicide run on our end. We were meant to shut down the Portal, not topple an empire.
11/03/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Orayo
Had that taken into account past losses to the human forces? Also this is probably specifically Stormwind's army, which they put on every front line everywhere there's war they can reach, always putting themselves center-stage.


this is a good point but given that the Night Elves' back has basically been broken, driving Tyrande to desperation and invoking an ancient ritual, likely means that the Night Elves are about to capitulate as well

Gnomes don't have a standing army to speak of and even if they did who cares, they are a strategic long-term asset not an operational or tactical one

Draenei are probably irrelevant at this point and incapable of force projection considering that the Vindicaar is the last operational vessel of its kind and losing it means the loss of a center of command, research, etc., it would basically be like losing their only city

Dwarves are probably the only likely threat, and now with them being supplemented by the Dark Irons they are even stronger

Worgen aren't even capable of fighting as an army and are reduced to smaller, tactical units unsuited to wars of conquest or fighting long-term conflicts, more suited to small-scale regional conflicts where they can afford to choose when to attack, but even then they are not that numerous and remain at the end of the day survivors of a broken nation that had been wracked by civil war and sickness prior, and even then, i don't think there's a way for them to reproduce
In other news, I'm not gonna take too much offense to it but I feel like the "You can play PvP against bots now (You're welcome Alliance)" slide in their presentation is slowly edging out Diablo: Immortal on most tone deaf decision.
11/03/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Opherial
Of course in universe the Alliance would be losing.

Orcs might as well be death cultists looking for a great way to die and are about the size of a human and a half.

Tauren are thick pelted and built like brick outhouses.

Forsaken can be glued back together (and they can forcibly make new ones, one of the big points of contention lately).

Goblins breed like rabbits and already have a life expectency so low that self-exploding sappers is a totally valid and pretty common job.

Also the Horde's de facto warmaster and the second in command war master on average don't care what happens to the troops under their command, leading them to be able to pull off some pretty spectacularly "Eh, we weren't using those guys anyway" maneuvers nobody sane would be expecting.

Like... we were losing against the Lich King / Scourge too which is most of those traits combined, that's why we had to team up and get a bunch of neutral factions involved.

Like IDK if anyone else realized this but that was kind of the whole point of Warcraft 3 was all the races have their own strengths and that's why when facing the end of the world we end up needing each other but I know the Red v. Blue narrative must remain the sole focus of life.


Vindicar
Blizz will never, ever do anything whatsoever good with the Draenei ever again after Legion, because Legion was basically all Draenei lore could ask for since WoD ruined any chance for Draenor lore

The Vindicaar doesn't exist

The Exodar is not relevant

The Draenei have no troops
11/03/2018 04:34 PMPosted by Opherial
In other news, I'm not gonna take too much offense to it but I feel like the "You can play PvP against bots now (You're welcome Alliance)" slide in their presentation is slowly edging out Diablo: Immortal on most tone deaf decision.


Haha yeah - though there have been times where I wished I could boot a few people from bgs and have some of those island bots instead. Still, "we have a new arathi brawl -- it's pve!!!" *crickets*
So nobody's going to talk about how Thrall himself arrived at the Q&A to ask when he's becoming Warchief again?
11/03/2018 01:11 PMPosted by Opherial
Of course in universe the Alliance would be losing.


The Horde was built upon the idea that they were a bunch of separate groups on the brink of extinction in WC3. That was a long time ago at this point, and lets be honest. The Alliance would win as soon as the Vindicaar showed up and destroyed every Horde city from low orbit.

We will never see things like that, or the Horde being wiped out like it should have been several times during WoW, because the games narrative prevents it.

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