BlizzCon 2018 Spoilers/Discussion Thread

Wyrmrest Accord
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Warcraft novels/novellas are on the same level as Dragonlance and Riftwar novels. I loved them when I was in jr high and even high school, but 20 years later, not so much.

I was a HUGE Riftwar/Feist fan when I was younger and I read through them all again as the final book in the entire series came out a few years back and it was a tough read. I've read a few Warcraft novels and they were all pretty terrible.

If you like them, great. But I'm definitely not the target audience it appears.
To me, the best way to go about the story would be; as they've at least tried to show with their changes to the scenario so far, that the Forsaken ressurection thing isn't infallible. Spirits may tell you to go sit on a cheesegrater and spin before drifting off to wherever. Or they may react even more violently.

Perhaps there could even be just ...no spirit. Either they passed on just fast enough to be truly free of the mortal plain or ...something far more ominous is going on. This is of course, is situationally dependent. There's a lot of Void fore-shadowing going on so, it could have something to do with that (and most likely would).

Also, making the Night Elf Dark Rangers more obviously unstable as some part of them is trying to cling hold to their former selves as they're manipulated into fighting against their own people would be interesting, instead of the ...well, 'edgy' if I may say, attitude they currently have. Show that there's conflict in them, instead of making them stupid mind-slaves happy to help finish off the slaughter of their own people.

And hell, when the time comes for Sylvanas to die, if that's the direction they want to go, they could very easily have her go through a moment of poetic justice. Whether via raid team or betrayal, set her on fire!

Of course, ideally this expac would be a lot better had the faction war just -not- been the major arc. Or hell, if it had to be, they could've made the Horde a -lot- less outright destructive. Since, you know, this is meant to be the New Horde, not that Horde that exists to have their brains stomped out by a big angry guy in tinted green space man armor.
11/08/2018 05:28 PMPosted by Lamunadra
Is it really too much to ask ppl to be constructive with their criticism?

We know the story sucks, we know ppl are rage quitting over it.

So, how can it not suck? What would keep you subbed?

(Sylvanas ded!)

Okay but how can we spread that out over a few patches?


*Cracks neck*

*Shakes Bronze Dragon*

Welcome to AU Battle for Azeroth

-Pre-patch: War of Thorns-

With Anduin and Sylvanas both preoccupied with the mysteries of Azerite, the Night Elves and Worgen, embittered and emboldened with the addition of the Lightforged, launch a surprise attack to drive the Horde out of Ashenvale. The Horde is caught so flat footed, that the Alliance forces drive deep into the heart of the Barrens, threatening the Crossroads. Sylvanas marshals the forces of Ogrimmar to stop the Alliance advance, but is sent word of Alliance forces breaking off into Aszhara and Stonetalon. Having depleted Ogrimmar's defenses, Sylvanas realizes the only way to prevent an utter rout of the Horde is a suicide run - draw the Alliance away from Ogrimmar by threatening Teldrassil. She and her warriors counter-charge, slaughtering all in their wake because they have to. The atrocities committed divert more Alliance attention away from Ogrimmar and buys Baine enough time to bring up reinforcements to secure the city. Sylvanas and her forces reach Darkshore and Sylvanas orders firebombing of the World Tree. Saurfang objects to this course of action, but Sylvanas shouts him down, telling him she knows full well that firebombing Teldrassil will do nothing - nothing except bring the Alliance wrath down upon their heads. "Every soldier of the Alliance out for our blood means one less pair of eyes to see Ogrimmar defenseless."

Unfortunately for Sylvanas, just as she stripped Ogrimmar to the bone, so too did the Kaldorei strip Teldrassil of its usual defenses. Sylvanas and Saurfang watch in mounting horror as the flames spread - the Sentinels and Druids that would form fire brigades absent from the tree. And as Saurfang's expression turns mournful, Sylvanas' turns hard.
11/08/2018 05:46 PMPosted by Quintus
Warcraft novels/novellas are on the same level as Dragonlance and Riftwar novels. I loved them when I was in jr high and even high school, but 20 years later, not so much.

I was a HUGE Riftwar/Feist fan when I was younger and I read through them all again as the final book in the entire series came out a few years back and it was a tough read. I've read a few Warcraft novels and they were all pretty terrible.

If you like them, great. But I'm definitely not the target audience it appears.


There's even a common thread there, Quin! Knaak wrote the worst of both Dragonlance and Warcraft's fare.
11/08/2018 05:46 PMPosted by Quintus
Warcraft novels/novellas are on the same level as Dragonlance and Riftwar novels. I loved them when I was in jr high and even high school, but 20 years later, not so much.

I was a HUGE Riftwar/Feist fan when I was younger and I read through them all again as the final book in the entire series came out a few years back and it was a tough read. I've read a few Warcraft novels and they were all pretty terrible.

If you like them, great. But I'm definitely not the target audience it appears.
Hahaha, oh god, Raymond E. Feist.

Indeed, his work hasn't aged well. I lived and breathed Riftwar as a teenager. Kind of miss those days of innocence.
Constructive criticism is just pointing out weak points. It's on the creative professional to take those points and revise. It can escalate to editing and re-dev, which is certainly fun on a forum so here's my take :0

Constructive criticism: Sylvanas' motivations for burning Teldrassil feel weak. The "personal" is overpowering the "universal" here -- what are her goals and how does burning the tree affect those goals, her people, etc.?

Editing: Remove the exchange at the tree, make Sylvanas clearly state the tree must burn due to Malfurion escaping -- and why it's important to kill hope. She'll remember Arthas and her people and give warning to the Nelves to spare as many as possible -- but they will lose their home.

Creative Development: Let's rethink the entire thrust of this war and how it will play out in the pre-patch. As it is now, there's a jarring disconnect between Legion and BfA's content. We need to revisit the role of Azerite and consider playing up its effects on key brand characters.

Azerite + Sylvanas & Genn's ongoing conflict could be a good place to start re: disrupting the tenuous alliance of the factions that was a necessity for defeating the Legion.

Let's set up an affair between Anduin and Jaina, these nerds love that Game of Thrones stuff. A big coming of age moment (literally) that makes Anduin realise how much he needs Wrathion back in his life.

Wait, what were we talking about again?
11/08/2018 06:10 PMPosted by Duskharrow
11/08/2018 05:46 PMPosted by Quintus
Warcraft novels/novellas are on the same level as Dragonlance and Riftwar novels. I loved them when I was in jr high and even high school, but 20 years later, not so much.

I was a HUGE Riftwar/Feist fan when I was younger and I read through them all again as the final book in the entire series came out a few years back and it was a tough read. I've read a few Warcraft novels and they were all pretty terrible.

If you like them, great. But I'm definitely not the target audience it appears.


There's even a common thread there, Quin! Knaak wrote the worst of both Dragonlance and Warcraft's fare.


I remember loving the Legend of Huma and Kaz the Minotaur when I was about 12. I read one of the "X of the dragon" books and I was like "wow, this is garbage.".

Hahaha, oh god, Raymond E. Feist.

Indeed, his work hasn't aged well. I lived and breathed Riftwar as a teenager. Kind of miss those days of innocence.


Magician though Darkness at Sethanon are still a fun read, but the Empire trilogy that he cowrote with Janny Wurts is the best the series has to offer. Feist is kind of a #@#!%%**, and hated how much people loved this series more than his solo work to the point that he'd get upset when people kept asking if they were going back to see what happened with Mara. This went on for years until he got sick of it and destroyed the entire planet in one of his later Riftwar books to put the whole thing to rest.
I stopped reading after Krondor: The Assassins. I remember growing tired of the series right as Tear of the Gods was coming out.
"Is it too much to ask people to be constructive with their criticism?"

Yes. Yes it is.
11/08/2018 09:09 AMPosted by Opherial
"@Summermooner, we didn't even get the Vindicaar because it would ruin the story they wanted to tell, Elune was a long shot sry."


okay unironically ppl like to bring up the vindicaar or whatever vessels the draenei have but they only have one left and all the other ones are broken or inoperable so i dont think it would turn out that great just saying
11/09/2018 09:16 AMPosted by Balghur
11/08/2018 09:09 AMPosted by Opherial
"@Summermooner, we didn't even get the Vindicaar because it would ruin the story they wanted to tell, Elune was a long shot sry."


okay unironically ppl like to bring up the vindicaar or whatever vessels the draenei have but they only have one left and all the other ones are broken or inoperable so i dont think it would turn out that great just saying


You're saying it would turn out worse than Sylvanas torching surrendered cities full of civilians?

If the choice is wait Sylvanas out and die, or attack and die?

"Ion Cannon detected"
11/09/2018 10:29 AMPosted by Farley


You're saying it would turn out worse than Sylvanas torching surrendered cities full of civilians?

If the choice is wait Sylvanas out and die, or attack and die?

"Ion Cannon detected"


a flaming rock will hit it and it will fall out of the sky like teh other one
11/09/2018 10:38 AMPosted by Balghur
11/09/2018 10:29 AMPosted by Farley


You're saying it would turn out worse than Sylvanas torching surrendered cities full of civilians?

If the choice is wait Sylvanas out and die, or attack and die?

"Ion Cannon detected"


a flaming rock will hit it and it will fall out of the sky like teh other one


A flaming rock will hit it either way.

"Sylvanas came for the elves, and I did nothing because I wasn't an elf"
People bring up the Vindicaar because it's a genuinely powerful vessel that stood against the entirety of the Legion, alone might I add.

It'd take a gigantic feat of military might to bind the Vindicaar to a single spot and destroy it, and thats why people are asking about it, why WOULDN'T the alliance use such a weapon against the Horde?

Give us a reason, say it's the only thing guarding Azuremyst, the one last major foothold the alliance has in kalimdor from the Horde fleet and that they're unwilling to risk moving it away.
11/09/2018 08:33 AMPosted by Kureya
"Is it too much to ask people to be constructive with their criticism?"

Yes. Yes it is.


I feel where we lose each other is when people conflate "constructive" with "nice." You don't have to be nice to be constructive and nice isn't always constructive (in fact, it very frequently isn't).

"This game sucks" isn't nice or constructive (though it is telling).

"Wait and see" is nice but not constructive (and is ultimately destructive, as we've seen before).

"Sylvanas' motivations make no sense" is not nice, but it is constructive. But this often gets shouted down for not being constructive enough because of that old fallback "well, suggest something better."

Which is, quite frankly, insane.

We're not story developers. We shouldn't have to do Blizzard's jobs for them. We shouldn't want each other to do Blizzard's jobs for them. If I wrote the story, the Tauren would be massacred, Stormwind would be in ruins and Orcs would be an endangered species--that's fun for me (and maybe Wolf and Azhaar), but not for most players.

Voicing a specific criticism is very constructive. And if it's nice, it's actually less constructive because you're clouding the actual criticism with faux politeness in the name of sparing the feelings of the developers.

We could even go into how Blizzard only seems to do good work if you criticize them pretty cruelly, but that's another tale.

Point being: someone else's point can be constructive, even if you don't like it or it's not nice.
I don't feel the need to treat a multimillion dollar company with kid's gloves.

My criticism is just as constructive and valid regardless of if i'm being nice or mean about it.

"Wait and see." On the other hand i could argue for days on how that is probably the most annoyingly non-constructive thing ever uttered when it comes to these subjects.

Entirely based around the track record we have with "Well we waited and we saw."
11/09/2018 11:23 AMPosted by Enekie

"Sylvanas' motivations make no sense" is not nice, but it is constructive. But this often gets shouted down for not being constructive enough because of that old fallback "well, suggest something better."

[/quote]

What makes a criticism constructive is a suggestion on how to make it better

'Sylvanas motivations make no sense' isnt constructive by itself, but if you were to add, 'they should expand on them in game through quests or a cutscene or something'
11/09/2018 11:53 AMPosted by Lamunadra
What makes a criticism constructive is a suggestion on how to make it better

'Sylvanas motivations make no sense' isnt constructive by itself, but if you were to add, 'they should expand on them in game through quests or a cutscene or something'

I feel like this only works if you agree with the idea but disagree on the execution. What if I dislike something's fundamental premise? Does that mean "I hate this, and you can fix it by never doing something like it again" constructive criticism?
There's an interview out now with Alex Afrasiabi that says Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate event.

"I've heard these discussions on the internet about 'she's going off the rails', but is she? I've been writing Sylvanas personally since 2006, and this is pretty much - the Wrathgate and the Blight and the Forsaken - in character. Those were all under Sylvanas' orders. What we're seeing now is an escalation of the plans Sylvanas has, clearly, and we're in the middle of that."

Then he goes on about how much of a joy she's been to write for the last 12 years. So I guess we won't be rid of zombie waifu anytime soon.
People downplaying the Vindicaar when the Horde should have been wiped off the map multiple times since the game launched by its own narrative.

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