Gaurdian M+ talent help

Druid
HI, I just dinged 120 Tuesday morning. I like guardian more than any other tank so I chose that. With that being said when I do enjoy a character I like to do the best I can on it. I’m playing this character mainly for M+ and don’t plan on tanking raids. I’ve seen very different talent builds from all over.

For M+ preferably around +8-10
Should I use brambles + Earthwarden?

I tried out brambles earthwarden but it seemed like I took a lot more damage compared to my current build as the rage generated from blood frenzy combined with the guardian of Elune duration I am able to achieve more frequent and longer duration Ironfurs.

The highest rated M+ guardian is running blood frenzy + survival instincts. Leading to even more confusion.
Honestly it doesnt really matter much anymore. choices are so close taking what you enjoy would probably be best. with that said earthwarden is a whole lot of healing.
the vast majority of my key runs are in pugs. this can and does influence talents you might choose to take over others. it definitely does for me.

I currently use brambles. however, it must be understood I do not do so at all for defensive purposes. I pug a lot, and pugs are unpredictable in that they cannot be relied upon to actually let me get in there and hit the things first. I take brambles to help me with aoe damage aka threat generation and also help pick up extra mobs that inevitably get pulled from time to time. if you don't require the additional damage or threat, either of the other 2 options will be better for you.

as far as level 90 talent row - earthwarden, survival of the fittest or guardian of elune. I kind of feel like this is the debate of the season.

earthwarden does do a lot of healing via negating incoming damage. for me where it falls short is it only applying to auto attack damage. I don't feel like my survivability is being threatened at all by regular melee attacks (at least not at the key levels I'm currently doing which is in the 8-9 range - this could be something that changes as the keys get higher, but I can only speak on my own experience thus far).

I prefer having the control of when and how often I need survival cd's available, which is why I choose to take sotf. as a side effect of sotf the barkskin cd is now short enough to be able to use it in conjunction with the brambles talent as a sort of mini damage cd and it will be available almost every pull - or depending on the pull it can be up twice.

guardian of elune is a strong choice as well. I think it can really help smooth things out, but maybe have a little less control in surviving when things get chaotic/ don't go as planned due to possibly not having cd's available. again, keep in mind I primarily pug. things go wrong all the time that I have no control over. (such as someone running laser matrix azerite traits, now we have friends coming at us from halfway across the room while we're still fighting another pack haha)

I think all 3 level 90 talents are valid choices in different ways that can be used to suit your own playstyle and needs. having a solid regular group that you're consistently running with (or at least your own consistent pocket healer to receive feedback from) would definitely help in fleshing out which talent choices best supplement the group.
^ good points
I love playing my resto Druid, and I would like to ask a honest question to you veteran Druids out there about something thats been bothering me about Guardian tank (hopefully it's still somewhat on topic with this thread).

As a healer main, I've always have a not so great of experience when I have a Guardian as a tank in Mythic+. For some reason I've always found them harder to heal than quite literally every other tanking specs in the game (with Protadin and BDK being on the opposite side of that experience).

Because I was planning on gearing up my own bear, I was wondering if it's just me having had be stick with just bad Guardians so far, or should I gear up my Pally instead?
OP, talents are actually somewhat well balanced for Bears.

15: All viable, Brambles generally best in M+.

30: Charge or Roar.

45: Resto = some utility in high keys, Balance = slightly easier aoe and kiting.

60: Typhoon

75: Galactic Guardian

90: Generally Earthwarden will have the most value, but GoA is a solid defensive talent and Survival offers slightly more DPS with Brambles.

100: Rend & Tear

11/05/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Nekopon
I love playing my resto Druid, and I would like to ask a honest question to you veteran Druids out there about something thats been bothering me about Guardian tank (hopefully it's still somewhat on topic with this thread).

As a healer main, I've always have a not so great of experience when I have a Guardian as a tank in Mythic+. For some reason I've always found them harder to heal than quite literally every other tanking specs in the game (with Protadin and BDK being on the opposite side of that experience).

Because I was planning on gearing up my own bear, I was wondering if it's just me having had be stick with just bad Guardians so far, or should I gear up my Pally instead?


Bears struggle with magic damage and and don’t kite particularly well, but actual Physical damage intake should be pretty smooth if the Player knows what they are doing.
Typhoon is generally superior to Mass Entangle, although certain affixes (bolstering, explosive) and certain dungeons (Siege, KR, Shrine) really favor ME.

You want charge. Roar does almost nothing, as it generally increases incap time on mobs under DPS from 1 tenth of a second to maybe 3 tenths of a second. It doesn't even last long enough to stall an accidental pull.

Brambles and R&T are threat talents, while Blood Frenzy/Bristling and Pulverize are survival talents. Bears have significant threat problems, so you probably need Brambles & R&T. You are also likely to need rogue/hunter support. Forget that Lunar Beam exists. It's always been embarrassingly undertuned.

GG isn't as strong as it used to be, but it still seems to outperform the other options for that row. Soul isn't compelling for M+ trash, and Incarnation isn't available often enough, although it may work for big pulls on Tyrannical weeks.

I don't like Earthwarden. It does a fair amount of healing, but I don't think it's useful healing. It won't do much on bosses, and dangerous trash pulls are either going to kill you with ability damage or outrun your Earthwarden charges. Guardian isn't bad, but FR tends to be either overkill or insufficient.

I prefer Survival, since Barkskin covers the dangerous, early parts of most pulls when mobs use their abilities first and before anything dies, and it allows you to be more aggressive with SI charges.
11/05/2018 09:15 AMPosted by Uncleslam


11/05/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Nekopon
I love playing my resto Druid, and I would like to ask a honest question to you veteran Druids out there about something thats been bothering me about Guardian tank (hopefully it's still somewhat on topic with this thread).

As a healer main, I've always have a not so great of experience when I have a Guardian as a tank in Mythic+. For some reason I've always found them harder to heal than quite literally every other tanking specs in the game (with Protadin and BDK being on the opposite side of that experience).

Because I was planning on gearing up my own bear, I was wondering if it's just me having had be stick with just bad Guardians so far, or should I gear up my Pally instead?


Bears struggle with magic damage and and don’t kite particularly well, but actual Physical damage intake should be pretty smooth if the Player knows what they are doing.


Appreciate the reply. Care to elaborate the reason why in regard to the magic dmg part?
11/05/2018 11:38 AMPosted by Nikkineko


Appreciate the reply. Care to elaborate the reason why in regard to the magic dmg part?


magic damage bypasses armor, so all tanks struggle more mitigating magic damage than physical. the difference is just in how different tank classes can deal with it. our frenzied regeneration was gutted for bfa (less charges, longer recharge time, and limited healing %), and is also on the gcd, which makes magic damage harder to deal with for us. tanks with more on demand self healing will handle magic damage more easily.

I personally feel we'd be in a better spot to handle magic damage if the changes to our frenzied regen were reverted. we will see what 8.1 brings us and continue to work with what we have.
11/05/2018 12:00 PMPosted by Lilywind
11/05/2018 11:38 AMPosted by Nikkineko


Appreciate the reply. Care to elaborate the reason why in regard to the magic dmg part?


magic damage bypasses armor, so all tanks struggle more mitigating magic damage than physical. the difference is just in how different tank classes can deal with it. our frenzied regeneration was gutted for bfa (less charges, longer recharge time, and limited healing %), and is also on the gcd, which makes magic damage harder to deal with for us. tanks with more on demand self healing will handle magic damage more easily.

I personally feel we'd be in a better spot to handle magic damage if the changes to our frenzied regen were reverted. we will see what 8.1 brings us and continue to work with what we have.


Ah yeah, that explains a lot actually... on why Guardians felt squishier than other Tank specs. I somewhat know that this might be the possible culprit, but never realized to extent to what this means since I don't really play Tanks at all.
I use:

Brambles but I usually use this offensively rather then defensively usually
Intimidating roar if gives me a mass interupt and they become feared for a few seconds which can give me the time to get away and swift mend if needed.
Resto affinity
Typhoon so I can knock back and begin to kite
Galactic Gaurdian
Earthwarden
Rend and tear
11/05/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Nekopon
I love playing my resto Druid, and I would like to ask a honest question to you veteran Druids out there about something thats been bothering me about Guardian tank (hopefully it's still somewhat on topic with this thread).

As a healer main, I've always have a not so great of experience when I have a Guardian as a tank in Mythic+. For some reason I've always found them harder to heal than quite literally every other tanking specs in the game (with Protadin and BDK being on the opposite side of that experience).

Because I was planning on gearing up my own bear, I was wondering if it's just me having had be stick with just bad Guardians so far, or should I gear up my Pally instead?


I’m only 355ilvl but if I push a +5 or +6 my dmg intake is smooth and consistent. But I’m trying to push keys so I’m looking for +8s and +9s and it’s spikey AF. Feel bad for the healer but a bears gotta do what a bears gotta do.
11/05/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Nekopon
I love playing my resto Druid, and I would like to ask a honest question to you veteran Druids out there about something thats been bothering me about Guardian tank (hopefully it's still somewhat on topic with this thread).

As a healer main, I've always have a not so great of experience when I have a Guardian as a tank in Mythic+. For some reason I've always found them harder to heal than quite literally every other tanking specs in the game (with Protadin and BDK being on the opposite side of that experience).

Because I was planning on gearing up my own bear, I was wondering if it's just me having had be stick with just bad Guardians so far, or should I gear up my Pally instead?


It's not just you, bears are harder to heal. They're pretty much the worst class for m+ tanking, which is reflected in the raider.io leaderboards. Of the top 100 m+ tanks in the world, there are three warriors and a single druid. The #1 tank by far is BDK, with a bunch of demonhunters and some pallies rounding it out.

Bears are still plenty good enough if all you want to do is your 10 for the week. If you're serious about pushing keys every week as a tank, just reroll a DK and save yourself the frustration.
11/05/2018 08:36 PMPosted by Fancypantsz
11/05/2018 08:50 AMPosted by Nekopon
I love playing my resto Druid, and I would like to ask a honest question to you veteran Druids out there about something thats been bothering me about Guardian tank (hopefully it's still somewhat on topic with this thread).

As a healer main, I've always have a not so great of experience when I have a Guardian as a tank in Mythic+. For some reason I've always found them harder to heal than quite literally every other tanking specs in the game (with Protadin and BDK being on the opposite side of that experience).

Because I was planning on gearing up my own bear, I was wondering if it's just me having had be stick with just bad Guardians so far, or should I gear up my Pally instead?


It's not just you, bears are harder to heal. They're pretty much the worst class for m+ tanking, which is reflected in the raider.io leaderboards. Of the top 100 m+ tanks in the world, there are three warriors and a single druid. The #1 tank by far is BDK, with a bunch of demonhunters and some pallies rounding it out.

Bears are still plenty good enough if all you want to do is your 10 for the week. If you're serious about pushing keys every week as a tank, just reroll a DK and save yourself the frustration.


Bears aren't unpopular in M+ because they are harder to heal(unless its like ML which is loaded with Magic damage), its because they have poor dungeon utility and poor damage.
Yea I was surprised with this. I literally just hit 120 last week and with Raider.io average is a +6 timed which isn’t that great and a very popular realm and I’m in the top 80 of all guardians for M+. Bears are rare out here.

Should be better with 8.1 we’ll be able to kite mobs better with typhoon and Ursols and damage increase along with other tanks getting slight nerfs.
I use:

Intimidating roar if gives me a mass interupt and they become feared for a few seconds which can give me the time to get away and swift mend if needed.

[/quote]

Disorienting roar does exactly the same thing for interrupting spells and abilities, and I've never seen the fear stick for more than a half second under active DPS.
Sorry if this is a repeated question, but for bears I looked up a guide for the stat weight which was saying for survivability vers is the way to go mostly? (Leveling up my bear)
If people are looking for a bear to model themselves after in order to push some higher keys i highly recommend people take a look at Nihillo. He regularly streams on Twitch and uploads to YouTube as well. He has been pushing 16s and is always eager to share his knowledge and experience with the spec.
Your talents are all equally useless.
11/06/2018 06:53 AMPosted by Simplisafe
Sorry if this is a repeated question, but for bears I looked up a guide for the stat weight which was saying for survivability vers is the way to go mostly? (Leveling up my bear)


Stack versatility and haste. Try to get your vers to a minimum of 10%. Use your highest ilvl trinkets whether they are tank OR dps. If you have the gold or profession skill, get a Darkmoon Deck: Blockade trinket to hold you over until you get higher ilvl ones. Best survival azerite traits to search for are Twisted Claws, Gory Regen, Archive of the Titan (from Uldir), Gemhide, and Crystalline Carapace. The last two are tier 2 traits.

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