Will Classic will be fine without LFR?

Classic Discussion
The nature of Classic will incentivize guilds on a level retail hasn't seen since Cataclysm. Guilds that help people level, that help with professions, that run dungeons and raids. Guilds that are a tightknit social group instead of just people you endure for your guild perks, since you don't actually need them for anything. You'll actually communicate with them, form bonds with them, and you'll support each other.

And when the ninja-looters try to do their thing again, once the risk-reward nature of dungeons and raids sets in, they will be held to account and ostracized much like they were back then. You may not think it now, but when you are pugging for a raid that drops a few pieces of loot per boss per week in a 40 man raid, you will take that seriously, and you will care who you run with and their reputations.
The whole point of Classic is to NOT have LFR/LFG !@#$ing the game up.
11/06/2018 08:25 PMPosted by Sarevök
The whole point of Classic is to NOT have LFR/LFG !@#$ing the game up.

Read the actual post.
11/06/2018 08:32 PMPosted by Espur
11/06/2018 08:25 PMPosted by Sarevök
The whole point of Classic is to NOT have LFR/LFG !@#$ing the game up.

Read the actual post.

I know right? I was saying that this will prove that a MMOs in 2018 can survive without automated grouping tools.
LFR is for unskilled players who want free epics without having to improve as a player.
11/06/2018 08:55 PMPosted by Jayawen
I know right? I was saying that this will prove that a MMOs in 2018 can survive without automated grouping tools.

I went in with the same thoughts, but once I actually read your post, I realized you were actually arguing that the lack of it is a good thing and potentially sheds some light on the true negative impact it's had on the game.
11/06/2018 07:28 PMPosted by Xanthak
Classic has LFR. It's called MC and BWL.

There's a common misconception around that LFR is entirely about the difficulty. That's not all there is to it - it's equally about the simplicity of forming the group.

Click a button and wait.

This is the real reason people (rightly) criticize story questlines that end with a mythic dungeon. Mythic 0 is not hard. I can handle it. What can't I handle? Listing a group for it and receiving no reply after an hour.

That is the barrier, not the difficulty. Putting mythic 0 on the dungeon finder would solve that problem easily. A problem they should have already learned when they made Arcway and Court of Stars heroic-available like they should have been from the start.

LFD and LFR have fractured the community, no doubt. But let's not pretend there aren't little advantages to them here and there. And given how toxic the community is on retail, "removing" them is not an option at this stage. They've caused a problem that their continued presence is simultaneously helping to keep under control. Removing them would cause a collapse.

But of course, I digress. These things don't belong in Classic. Absolutely not.
Im really looking forward to one thing above all else to be honest: patience. Things happen in your dungeon. Maybe your rogues sap misses, pulling the poor rogue out of stealth, and instead of facing their demise like a pro, they panic drag the ball of fury back to the party. Maybe the hunter forgets to turn off pet aggro. Maybe no one listens to the tank saying 'please, for the love of god, let me get three sunders on this guy before you all charge in'. Maybe the hunter forgets to buy arrows. Or forgets to repair. Or forgets to dismiss his pet when we all jump off that ledge in gnomeregan. Maybe someone accidentally sprays the sheep, forcing aggro on the mage, which the healer then picks up by throwing out a heal while the tank is busy fighting the rogue who keeps aggroing the boss and outranking them on threat, blowing all their threat cds. Maybe they dont even have an insta-threat pull. And are now busting their !@# trying to get threat off the healer, whilst the rogue is quickly soaring up to the top of the threat meter on the boss.

Maybe in an heroic moment, the heal used their soulstone at precisely the wrong moment when the tank was about to bite it before the next heal landed and the best burst heal they have is still 1.5 seconds cast time and evaporates their res mana anyways. Maybe everything that can go wrong is going wrong. That pat we skillfully waited to avoid is now on its way back to the group with the healer on zero mana, the tank at 40% health with no shouts, the mana dps running around like headless chicken wanding mobs in a desperate last ditch attempt to 5sr their mana regen because theyve got literally no other options.

All of this can and will happen. And the group is still going to give it at least another four attempts until the repairs start rolling in and we call it. Even then, maybe we'll even sit around in ZF waiting for the tank to get back from repairs at gadgetzan. We'll still keep going because its now a dumb fun adventure. :) Im so looking forward to it.

LFD after one death: "Crap heals, gl noobs!"
11/07/2018 04:28 AMPosted by Ippollite

LFD after one death: "Crap heals, gl noobs!"

The single biggest problem with automated systems turning players into bots. Before vote to kick you had trolls that would make dungeons a nightmare either intentionally wiping groups or trolling chat. Post vote to kick, any small infraction becomes reason you remove someone - including something as small as being lost in a dungeon you've never done (because some idiot decided cutscenes in dungeons, which everyone now speed runs, were a good idea).

You really can't win with an automated group system. It either allows people to act terribly, or it dehumanizes players and reduces them you the level on mindless bots that can being swapped as easily as clicking vote to kick. This doubles down when it panders to the lowest skillcap possible, and dungeons created such that they can practically be solo'd and no meaningful teamwork required you clear Them.
11/06/2018 03:44 PMPosted by Jayawen
Do you think Classic success will finally settle this hot button topic? That the game doesn't need LFD or LFR to be successful?

I'm so tired that every time this debate it is brought up in the GD forums it is swarmed by like the same 20 posters just shooting down any and all discussion around the negative aspects this system brought to the game.

I hope the success of Classic finally proves once and for all that the game was just fine without those anti-social tools. That all they did is create a lot of apathy towards casual guild raiding, which was a huge contributor to creating stickiness for the game.

As a vanilla veteran, end game raider who was in Naxx content prior to TBC release. Looking For Group is trash, and ruined an aspect of getting off your butt, and reaching out to people individually, guildies, friends, people you’ve run raids with before, etc, to group with you.

This added feature takes away the necissity for people to directly contact people in order to form groups. Do not add this.
11/06/2018 06:03 PMPosted by Jayawen
People that like Vanilla WoW didn't care about gear as with many Mythic raiders today. We liked raiding because of the team work and the people we got to do it with. I can't stress this enough to people that like LFR, it isn't about the gear, it was about who you were raiding with that made it fun.

This is what got me first hooked in vanilla - the friends i played with and the random people i met when we grouped up to knock out a quest or two (and eventually joined a guild together with).
I think Classic will do fine without LFD/LFR, but I won't be playing it, so its target audience (more hardcore, more time on their hands) will love NOT having those features.
If LFD was introduced you would likely need to see a retuning of dungeon content, I don't know why but qued groups seem objectively worse than puged groups.
LFR sucks, but raiding in Classic is gonna suck too due to 1.12 power trivializing all the old raids.

The real proof would be to have content hard enough to require guilds, thats when the community starts to really form.

The random pugs that are gonna be able to faceroll these mistuned raids is gonna make things feel much more like retail than Vanilla.

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