Too easy to predict winners on gear

Battlegrounds
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11/11/2018 08:34 PMPosted by Silverbolt
Gear doesn't matter. Low HP gives illusion of weakness, but in actuality those players will do just as much damage.

It does matter, if one team is all 160k hp people they are probably mythic raiders or some sort of heroic/mythic raider or a good pvper.
11/11/2018 10:36 PMPosted by Utterly
11/11/2018 09:52 PMPosted by Yarrow
...
Among other things, revert the requirement to be ilvl 320 to go into warfronts.

Agree. What do you think about ilvl and azerite traits "not mattering"? I know you are a reasonable person so I'm interested in your thoughts.

JMO, it feels like gear does matter. I feel like I perform better on my 350+ ilvl "main" as compared to my ~270 ilvl alt of the same class and spec (DPS). I feel like I do more damage on my main and can function/kill people more easily. I know that is just my personal experience, but that's all I have to go on.

Gear ilvl does matter. There is some scaling, so it doesn't matter as much as it does in PVE, but it does matter. For example, upgrading just one item - granted, the most important item for physical damage classes, my weapon - from 355 to 370 made a small but noticeable difference. And when I upgraded from my entry level 300 bow to a 345 bow, that made a big difference.

I think the reason people sometimes don't notice this is because they look at how much their gear has improved over the past few months, and they haven't noticed much of a difference in play, and they assume the gear doesn't make a difference. In reality that's because everyone else's gear has improved just as much, so relative to everyone else, their gear hasn't changed much. And not that many people have two characters with the same spec at different gear levels to make apples to apples comparisons.

With respect to Azerite traits, as of when my guild did its last set of tests, ilvl on Azerite gear was of outsize importance, because gear scaling didn't account for Azerite traits. Blizzard says it has since fixed that, but I haven't seen any quantitative test results on that. Even if it's fixed, the ilvl still matters, just not any more than it matters on any other gear.

With respect to trait availability, everyone would like a little more, but for hunters at least, the Conquest gear does include traits that are better in PVP than what's available on PVE gear. My choices aren't quite as good as would like, but with both Dread Gladiator and 7th Legion pieces available, I feel like I can get the absolutely necessary traits without too much use of underleveled gear.

I think if Blizzard had kept gear inflation down to what I consider to be reasonable levels, the difference gear made would not have been bigger than in Legion. This was still a noticeable difference - in Battle prepatch, I noticed it was a lot easier to kill ilvl 190 weekend warriors than ilvl 210 people who had kept up with the Darkshore gear through dailies through the week - but it wasn't enough to make new characters feel completely outclassed.

The problem is, the average gear level in 120 battlegrounds has gone up from maybe 290 a week after launch to probably 360 for experienced characters today. Meanwhile, brand new 120s are still ilvl 270. A week after launch, there wasn't much difference between 270s in greens and 290s in blues. Now, there's a big difference between 270s in greens and 360s in second tier purples.

The effort people have put into gear should count for something, so it's okay to have new characters be a little behind and have to put a bit of extra effort in to catch up. Right now, though, they start out a lot behind and need carries to catch up. I think it would be better if it were easier to get a character to the 320-340 range.
I too would like to read how this actually works....I've just levelled a Shaman, Priest and warrior from 110 to 120...and it seemed like

Character level
110... spend alot fo time dying
111-115 less time dying
115-119 you feel like god

then at 120
Ilevel
245-320 feels like cannon fodder
320+ you win some you lose some engagement
330+ confident my ability will have me survive most reasonable engagements
The reason I feel like this is happening is because I can reliably count on a win every single time we substantially outgear the other team. Works in arena as well.

New players have no way to get caught up very quickly, it's quite a slog for a few weeks unless they are doing some pretty repetitive grinding in pve.

If anything, I'd rather we were motivating MORE participation in pvp.
once you get around 310 you're about as strong as a 370. before then the scaling doesn't seem to work right. everyones damage is scaled to your own ilvl at around that point. you will notice on your details or end of bg scoreboard all damage is scaled to what you're using. enemy 370 sees a 15k hit, you see a 10k hit.
11/12/2018 03:31 AMPosted by Zeroburrito
once you get around 310 you're about as strong as a 370. before then the scaling doesn't seem to work right. everyones damage is scaled to your own ilvl at around that point. you will notice on your details or end of bg scoreboard all damage is scaled to what you're using. enemy 370 sees a 15k hit, you see a 10k hit.

Is it reasonable to say this, based on scaling?

Lets assume same class, same spec - Assassination

370 player Mutilates for 15k. 320 player Mutilates for 10k.

Due to scaling, the effective result is: 370 player hits for 12% of 320 player's health. 320 player hits for 10% of 370 player's health. 370 player does a little more damage because they actually have better gear (seems fair).

In essence, the effective damage is percentage as opposed to the actually number calculated by the combat system. Similar to how scaling works with world bosses and elites.
11/12/2018 04:41 AMPosted by Tavlina
11/12/2018 03:31 AMPosted by Zeroburrito
once you get around 310 you're about as strong as a 370. before then the scaling doesn't seem to work right. everyones damage is scaled to your own ilvl at around that point. you will notice on your details or end of bg scoreboard all damage is scaled to what you're using. enemy 370 sees a 15k hit, you see a 10k hit.

Is it reasonable to say this, based on scaling?

Lets assume same class, same spec - Assassination

370 player Mutilates for 15k. 320 player Mutilates for 10k.

Due to scaling, the effective result is: 370 player hits for 12% of 320 player's health. 320 player hits for 10% of 370 player's health. 370 player does a little more damage because they actually have better gear (seems fair).

In essence, the effective damage is percentage as opposed to the actually number calculated by the combat system. Similar to how scaling works with world bosses and elites.


Yeah something like this, yet Togo and test it out.

My brothers lock is 117 so when he hits 120 I'll see what difference the damage when we hit each other.
11/11/2018 11:22 PMPosted by Utterly
I still do wish I knew how it worked, exactly. I've heard azerite traits benefit some class/specs moreso than others. That strikes me as messed up, especially if you can't get the traits you really want/need unless you raid or play rated. I have fun even in my average (?) gear but, I do wish it were much more clear as to how gear matters.


Well, azerite traits are a mess, even Blizzard is aware of how convoluted it is right now. Hopefully they will manage to even things out a bit better with the traits soon.
My pally hit 120 on Thursday night. Playing as heals in a bg with 280 gear is night and day difference than playing with 330 gear even with tank trinkets on. Light of the martyr went from a 9k heal to a 14k heal.. 50% ish increase. (again this is with tank trinkets).
11/11/2018 11:24 PMPosted by Jugajr
11/11/2018 11:06 PMPosted by Neltherial
This is why I love playing my new lock, people charging me like I'm gonna die and then boom 3secs later they are wondering how they died so fast.

Traits a the biggest factor, higher ilvl traits are better and general gear doesn't matter as much.


Witnessed his new lock first hand.

Utterly, do you play around this time? If so, add me juga#1485 You'll see we aren't some scary force, and we do get a lot of good pre vs pre matches.


His new lock is my biggest fan, oh my meatballs =(
11/12/2018 01:09 AMPosted by Yarrow
11/11/2018 10:36 PMPosted by Utterly
...
Agree. What do you think about ilvl and azerite traits "not mattering"? I know you are a reasonable person so I'm interested in your thoughts.

JMO, it feels like gear does matter. I feel like I perform better on my 350+ ilvl "main" as compared to my ~270 ilvl alt of the same class and spec (DPS). I feel like I do more damage on my main and can function/kill people more easily. I know that is just my personal experience, but that's all I have to go on.

Gear ilvl does matter. There is some scaling, so it doesn't matter as much as it does in PVE, but it does matter. For example, upgrading just one item - granted, the most important item for physical damage classes, my weapon - from 355 to 370 made a small but noticeable difference. And when I upgraded from my entry level 300 bow to a 345 bow, that made a big difference.

I think the reason people sometimes don't notice this is because they look at how much their gear has improved over the past few months, and they haven't noticed much of a difference in play, and they assume the gear doesn't make a difference. In reality that's because everyone else's gear has improved just as much, so relative to everyone else, their gear hasn't changed much. And not that many people have two characters with the same spec at different gear levels to make apples to apples comparisons.

With respect to Azerite traits, as of when my guild did its last set of tests, ilvl on Azerite gear was of outsize importance, because gear scaling didn't account for Azerite traits. Blizzard says it has since fixed that, but I haven't seen any quantitative test results on that. Even if it's fixed, the ilvl still matters, just not any more than it matters on any other gear.

With respect to trait availability, everyone would like a little more, but for hunters at least, the Conquest gear does include traits that are better in PVP than what's available on PVE gear. My choices aren't quite as good as would like, but with both Dread Gladiator and 7th Legion pieces available, I feel like I can get the absolutely necessary traits without too much use of underleveled gear.

I think if Blizzard had kept gear inflation down to what I consider to be reasonable levels, the difference gear made would not have been bigger than in Legion. This was still a noticeable difference - in Battle prepatch, I noticed it was a lot easier to kill ilvl 190 weekend warriors than ilvl 210 people who had kept up with the Darkshore gear through dailies through the week - but it wasn't enough to make new characters feel completely outclassed.

The problem is, the average gear level in 120 battlegrounds has gone up from maybe 290 a week after launch to probably 360 for experienced characters today. Meanwhile, brand new 120s are still ilvl 270. A week after launch, there wasn't much difference between 270s in greens and 290s in blues. Now, there's a big difference between 270s in greens and 360s in second tier purples.

The effort people have put into gear should count for something, so it's okay to have new characters be a little behind and have to put a bit of extra effort in to catch up. Right now, though, they start out a lot behind and need carries to catch up. I think it would be better if it were easier to get a character to the 320-340 range.


I tested this and went into BGs with 230 ilvls and kicked !@# in 5 straight bgs. I really don't think it matters ( at least for casters )
Scaling appears to be doing its job really well. If anything, things like low health pools are probably more telling of a lack of character investment or experience than anything. I doubt that it's as much of a numbers thing as some people lead on.

I haven't found ilevel disparities to be a reliable predictor at all actually. Certainly much less reliable than a healer count disparity, among other factors.
11/12/2018 07:54 AMPosted by Erelir
Scaling appears to be doing its job really well. If anything, things like low health pools are probably more telling of a lack of character investment or experience than anything. I doubt that it's as much of a numbers thing as some people lead on.

I haven't found ilevel disparities to be a reliable predictor at all actually. Certainly much less reliable than a healer count disparity, among other factors.


There seems to be quite a few people that believe the gear matters the most. I'm with you in that i really don't think so. I've tested it and had no problems. I think your theory is on point though, if a 80k person steps into the BG they probably don't know how to play that character well (git gud?) and that's the liability, not the gear the character is wearing.
11/12/2018 07:54 AMPosted by Erelir
Scaling appears to be doing its job really well. If anything, things like low health pools are probably more telling of a lack of character investment or experience than anything. I doubt that it's as much of a numbers thing as some people lead on.

I haven't found ilevel disparities to be a reliable predictor at all actually. Certainly much less reliable than a healer count disparity, among other factors.


I think this very much holds true for dps specs. I still don't think it applies to healers though. Getting an extra 50% on my heals from 280 to 330 was very much noticeable.
No surprise that the Hordies, who run in battlegrounds where everyone on their side is well geared, are the ones that think gear scaling is working well.
11/12/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Yarrow
No surprise that the Hordies, who run in battlegrounds where everyone on their side is well geared, are the ones that think gear scaling is working well.


? I see a lot of horde teams with the same number of players below 100k They are called alts and both factions have them.
11/12/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Yarrow
No surprise that the Hordies, who run in battlegrounds where everyone on their side is well geared, are the ones that think gear scaling is working well.


Agreed
Do you guys actually open your eyes to the HP of players on both sides?
11/12/2018 09:48 AMPosted by Miadra
11/12/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Yarrow
No surprise that the Hordies, who run in battlegrounds where everyone on their side is well geared, are the ones that think gear scaling is working well.


Agreed


Ya my secret mission is to deny a balance issue so that my favorite faction can remain in power. I'm really just looking to preserve my precious 53%(?) winrate.

After all, if there wasn't a problem, then how come people complain on the forums? Imbalance must exist.
11/12/2018 09:47 AMPosted by Jugajr
11/12/2018 09:46 AMPosted by Yarrow
No surprise that the Hordies, who run in battlegrounds where everyone on their side is well geared, are the ones that think gear scaling is working well.

? I see a lot of horde teams with the same number of players below 100k They are called alts and both factions have them.

And yet the worst you've mentioned is 7 out of 15, not the 7 out of 10 that's typical for Alliance during prime time.

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