New WW traits thoughts and feedback

Monk
Windwalker Monk Azerite Traits Thoughts and Feedback

I have recently been testing some of the new Windwalker Monk Azerite traits on the gear I have available. I would like to start this post by listing the Azerite traits that have been removed for WW. The first trait that has been removed is “Swift Round House”; it was replaced by the new Azerite trait, “Glory of the Dawn”, Rising sun kick has a 25% chance to trigger a second time, dealing X dmg physical damage and restoring 1 chi.
The next trait removed is “Meridian Strikes”, it has been replaced by “Dance of Chi-Ji” Spending Chi has a chance to make your next spinning crane kick free and deal X additional damage.
The third trait to be removed from WW is “Iron Fists”, which has been replaced by “Fury of Xuen”. “Fury of Xuen” Your combo strikes grant you the Fury of Xuen, giving your next Fists or Fury a 3% chance to grant X haste and invoke Xuen, The white tiger for 8 seconds, Stacking up to 33 times.
Now that I have explained how some of the new traits work, I’d like to list each new trait in order of how they feel in the rotation for WW, and which ones I personally have enjoyed using.

Dance of Chi-ji: This has been by far my favorite new trait for WW. I was lucky enough to have Azerite pieces on for my helmet, shoulders, and chest that had this trait. When you stack this trait 3 times it does considerable damage. I was about 370 ilvl and regularly hitting with this ability for about 30k, and 60k critical strikes. When this trait procs it gives you a 10 second window to use the proc before it expires, which gives you some time to plan when you would like to use it in your rotation. I will say it did feel much better with “Serenity” than “Whirling Dragon Punch” you images split the over all damage you do between your 2 images it dosnt feel like it hits as hard.

Fury of Xuen: This was my second favorite Azerite trait. It looks really cool when you use your fists of fury and suddenly Xuen pops out and starts attacking your target. If you take the “Xuen the White Tiger” talent it will summon 2 Xuens. While it looks nice, you can’t control both, and I think it may be more beneficial to just increase the duration of the existing Xuen than give you two, while also possibly increasing damage while the proc is active. My biggest problem with this ability is that it is tied to Fists of Fury. I feel it could would work better if it was tied to Crackling Jade Lightning so you could build up stacks then use them during your cooldown window or on priority targets during and encounter.

Glory of the Dawn: This is my least favorite new trait coming to WW in the next patch. The reason I don’t enjoy this trait is that it’s proc rate seems very low and when it does proc it’s a bit lack luster yes it gives ww the old legion double back flip animation when it pros but during an encounter you never see it and it changes your rotation in now way. One improvement I could see is to raise the proc chance, but then I’m also afraid we may go back to spamming blackout kick just to reduce the CD on rising sun kick so we can fish for double kicks. I believe a better option would be to make this ability work as follows; Rising Sun Kick *and* Fists of Fury have a % chance to make your next Rising Sun Kick hit twice, stacking up to 2 times, but only consuming one stack per Rising Sun Kick. This could raise the proc chance without fear that you would stop using Fist of Fury single target, it also avoids a double proc and losing one if you happen to get one off a RSK and one off a Fists of Fury, it also gives you some control of when you use the damage. I will say that as a WW player that has played WW or MW since MOP, my favorite thing about monk has been its predictability. I don’t like a lot of pros in my spec I like a lot more control and these changes I’m suggesting all give at least to some degree of control of where my damage goes and when it goes out. The spinning crane kick traits RNG element doesn’t feel as bad because its an ability we don’t regularly use in single target so it feels like getting the Black out! Proc from tiger palm but also has the added dmg feel like the antorus set bonus for WW. Any thoughts or feedback on these new traits or proposed changes would be welcome!

Side note: one last thing I’d like to add is that currently none of the new WW PvP traits are working, reverse harm somewhat works in that it heals you but doesn’t redirect the damage. None of the other talents work at all, at least the new ones don’t. I’m a PvPer at heart and would love to be able to test these abilities before the patch is released in a few weeks thanks!
11/12/2018 03:45 PMPosted by Harver
I believe a better option would be to make this ability work as follows; Rising Sun Kick *and* Fists of Fury have a % chance to make your next Rising Sun Kick hit twice, stacking up to 2 times, but only consuming one stack per Rising Sun Kick.


That sounds like a cool addition. Fists of Fury thus far in BFA has been one of the most unexciting buttons to press.

Good post & thanks for that feedback!
Honestly I'm just not a fan of random procs, and also chances to refund Chi. Both of those seem at least somewhat counterproductive to at least what I've taken the appeal of WW to be: consistency and being rewarded for planning ahead. While neither of these negatively impact you, they don't exactly feel good either.

When you purposefully don't use a Blackout Kick during downtime because spending the Chi would prevent you from using something more important in a few seconds, then you end up getting some sort of Chi proc, it just makes me think, "Damn, if only I had known I would have had the Chi available," not "oh yay free chi," because I already missed my chance to BoK.

For something like Dance of Chi-Ji, I'm worried the scenario will be more along the lines of: a bunch of adds spawn, you pop SEF and start AoEing with FoF and SCK as filler. You wait for a proc that never comes. As soon as SEF is gone, or as soon as adds are dead, you get your proc. That's not something you can plan for, even with the buff lasting a little while. And while I know that's something almost every proc in the game shares, Windwalker not partaking very much is why I liked it (a free BoK wouldn't really matter that much aside from messing up planning a little like I said earlier).

Fury of Xuen is the only new trait I kind of like, but after testing it out for a while, there's a scenario that I saw happen a few times that felt really bad. I was at around 20-25 stacks, which is the point where you're expecting FoF to proc Xuen, but it's not quite a guarantee. I have SEF ready to go a few seconds later and I want to FoF to proc Xuen and dump my stacks, since with SEF up you gain stacks at 3x the rate. I FoF - no proc. Now, I'm approaching the cap on stacks/100% chance to get Xuen on my next FoF. The choice becomes: a few seconds later, do I pop SEF anyway (getting the next FoF towards the end of SEF), which would make me overcap stacks like crazy because of the increased rate with SEF up? Or do I kinda sit there without popping SEF for another ~20 seconds until my next FoF? Do I break mastery a few times to get FoF back quicker? This would delay my SEF, but not make me waste FoX stacks as much. Neither option feels great to actually perform, even if it does create a decision for the player.
(Intuitively, I think the second option is better, but it would depend on what's going on in the fight/dungeon. Would have to do some more testing to be more sure)
Like i said in my post i'm not a fan or RNG on my WW either. One of the things that brought me to the class in the first place was the lack of RNG WW had. The Spinning crane kick trait just feels the best out of the current iterations of the new traits because it doesn't have a HUGE impact on the game play of WW monk. most situations its: oh i got a proc cool press it continue my normal rotation just like it is when we get our Blackout kick! procs just another button to press during out normal rotation. where as like i said the other traits i think need more work they are much to RNG based and feel annoying to play with especially "Glory of the Dawn". The Fury of Xuen changes i suggested i feel will make it a lot less RNG in nature and give us more control over when we use Xuen. WW monks have been good at priority Damage and this trait would be no different. Same with the changes i suggested to Glory of dawn we could bank the stacks of Glory of the dawn for situations we needed to use them or with our burst. i'm not saying these are the best changed or the traits are fun to play with how they are or how i'm suggesting they change. i just think this may make them feel a bit better and fall in line more with how i think WW should play very planned out and predicable.
11/12/2018 04:20 PMPosted by Mickey
For something like Dance of Chi-Ji, I'm worried the scenario will be more along the lines of: a bunch of adds spawn, you pop SEF and start AoEing with FoF and SCK as filler. You wait for a proc that never comes. As soon as SEF is gone, or as soon as adds are dead, you get your proc. That's not something you can plan for, even with the buff lasting a little while. And while I know that's something almost every proc in the game shares, Windwalker not partaking very much is why I liked it (a free BoK wouldn't really matter that much aside from messing up planning a little like I said earlier).


Less RNG is definitely better. I'm ok with some procs that add a chance to trigger an additional bonus on an ability, like Glory of the Dawn, but I really don't enjoy the ones that are cooldown resets, extra damage, or resource generation aside from refunding what you spend.

Planning to generate and spend is a process that I really enjoy but whenever random variables are introduced it not only starts to feel cumbersome but it also makes that part of the gameplay feel meaningless. When I was looking at the new "wheel" for Azerite traits I noticed that we would be able to get 3 traits of Dance & still have 3 Traits of Open Palm Strikes so one way or another we'll be playing with this trait. I'm not a huge fan of a single AoE pull through the roof after I get lucky on a string of procs between SCK & BoK!. Eventually it'll start to feel like good damage is reliant on those chances and whenever they're not happening my cast of SEF will feel unrewarding, like "consistent damage" is really just a new way to say "procs when & where they matter."
11/12/2018 04:51 PMPosted by Harver
The Spinning crane kick trait just feels the best out of the current iterations of the new traits because it doesn't have a HUGE impact on the game play of WW monk. most situations its: oh i got a proc cool press it continue my normal rotation just like it is when we get our Blackout kick! procs just another button to press during out normal rotation. where as like i said the other traits i think need more work they are much to RNG based and feel annoying to play with especially "Glory of the Dawn". The Fury of Xuen changes i suggested i feel will make it a lot less RNG in nature and give us more control over when we use Xuen.


That's fair. I just think even DoC is a slippery slope, that even with just tuning, could easily become a "proc or not" situation having a pretty large effect on performance. Your FoX change idea is also solid and just makes it an alternate version of the legendary chest, which I've always wanted back as a talent. It's worth noting that from what I've discussed in the Peak of Serenity discord, people generally did not like the chest because of the movement restriction (moving for a mechanic destroying your damage from that cast), so if we ever got it back, I would hope they would let us channel CJL while moving, or else have all the damage frontloaded into the first tick like DoC does for SCK. (I'd prefer the full channel, as it's a little more flavorful imo and would help out filling downtime). But if it's an adaptation of FoX, it seems like you'd just need the first tick to drop stacks get the Xuen proc, and I guess you would be able to cancel it right away. It would be a little unintuitive that way and probably confuse people, and many might end up channeling it for the full duration thinking all ticks could proc it. So it would have to be a very clear tooltip or, much more easily, make CJL instant cast if there's no added damage.
11/12/2018 04:20 PMPosted by Mickey
Fury of Xuen is the only new trait I kind of like, but after testing it out for a while, there's a scenario that I saw happen a few times that felt really bad. I was at around 20-25 stacks, which is the point where you're expecting FoF to proc Xuen, but it's not quite a guarantee.


The good thing about the trait is at least it doesn't eat your fury of xuen stacks when you fof unless it procs xuen. The downside is that yes even when you have a considerable amount of stacks you still may not proc it (When testing it I seemed to get terrible luck with getting it to proc and had to wait for much higher stacks each time which is just me getting bad rng on them). That said this can also mean that if you are lucky you could get xuen proc after xuen proc, after xuen proc which would be a considerable boost.

All of them sort of sound interesting but I do hate the reliance on rng proc on all of them (even then the only one to eventually get to a guaranteed proc is the xuen one and you could get lucky on getting it to show up earlier).
i agree with you here but it wouldnt even have to be CJL they could do once u reach a certain amount of stacks from performing Combo strikes your next fist of fury will consume all those stacks and summon Xuen. The biggest thing i'm trying to get away from is like ya'll have said those moments where you WANT xuen to proc and he doesn't because i don't like that game-play in my class even to a limited degree. i Don't want to feel bad when i push an ability and something i want to happen wasn't that's why i play WW because when i push my abilities they do EXACTLY what they say they are going to do nothing more nothing less but that's just me.
11/12/2018 06:18 PMPosted by Harver
it seems like you'd just need the first tick to drop stacks get the Xuen proc, and I guess you would be able to cancel it right away. It would be a little unintuitive that way and probably confuse people, and many might end up channeling it for the full duration thinking all ticks could proc it. So it would have to be a very clear tooltip or, much more easily, make CJL instant cast if there's no added damage.


i agree with you here but it wouldnt even have to be CJL they could do once u reach a certain amount of stacks from performing Combo strikes your next fist of fury will consume all those stacks and summon Xuen. The biggest thing i'm trying to get away from is like ya'll have said those moments where you WANT xuen to proc and he doesn't because i don't like that game-play in my class even to a limited degree. i Don't want to feel bad when i push an ability and something i want to happen wasn't that's why i play WW because when i push my abilities they do EXACTLY what they say they are going to do nothing more nothing less but that's just me.[/quote]

So something like 'after gaining 35 stacks of fury of xuen you summon xuen the white tiger for 8 seconds' (likely a higher amount of stacks)? Or some variant where we don't rely on rng.
Or just let the stacks go past 33 (cap at 50 or 100 or something), but proccing Xuen only consumes 33 stacks at most.
Also, worth putting here, I just retested on PTR and they have changed it so that with SEF up, you still only get 1 stack of FoX per Combo Strike. So you no longer get the rush of stack building when you pop SEF, which I thought was a fun thing to plan around, besides the issue I mentioned above. (RIP potential interaction between abilities and making SEF more meaningful)

It doesn't fix the issue, and the solutions we put here still apply, but you'll overcap less if you don't get a proc when at 20-25 stacks right before SEF. Still not great
That's a good thing. We don't need more reason to make WDP superior to serenity by building fury of Xuen stacks faster.

I think people are looking too much into fury of Xuen. Simply don't rely on it and think of it as a trinket proc. That is basically how the azerite trait is meant to be treated.
not really blizzards has said themselves that they are replacments for Tier sets not a play off of trinkets there are a lot of azerite traits that have planning involved lively spirit for druids, natural Harmony for shamans, Executioners Precision for warriors and so on. it's not that i dont like ANY aspect of RNG it just dont like that it seems like most ALL off our azerite traits are in some way RNG.
11/13/2018 02:48 PMPosted by Thorcules
That's a good thing. We don't need more reason to make WDP superior to serenity by building fury of Xuen stacks faster.

I think people are looking too much into fury of Xuen. Simply don't rely on it and think of it as a trinket proc. That is basically how the azerite trait is meant to be treated.


Which would be fine it didn't have the possibility for being extremely good. With average rng on your side it will still likely be a decent trait to have one of, but then you happen to get lucky and get proc after proc after proc which would during that short amount of time give you more damage than the bouts when you get the average or worse rng on it.

I'd rather have it as a guaranteed 1 proc every minute or two with the duration on xuen being tuned to fit with that guaranteed proc. Or having it so you just build up stacks to a specific point and only proc xuen once you reach that specific amount of stacks.
11/12/2018 05:45 PMPosted by Mickey
have all the damage frontloaded into the first tick like DoC does for SCK


That's actually fixed on the PTR right now but I'm sure the news has reached you. Clones also seem like they're not getting damage from it.
Sad news on the PTR as of 11/14/2018 (for me at least) my azerite pieces where reset for peices that had Dance of Chi-Ji. The overall dmg of this build even stacking 3 of the traits has been Nerfed very heavily. in this original post i was talking about getting 30k non crits a lot and now i am only hitting with it for about 5k with one stack of mark of the crane with the max 5 stacks hits for about 8k. i will note that when i was testing this before the most recent patch on single target the trait seems to be only ticking for one BIG 30k tic instead of multiple ticks of smaller numbers. A 3 stack of this trait at ilvl 370 is hitting on average for about 5k in single target per tic and AOE. each tic does have a chance to crit. SCK is hitting 4 times per use. in AOE this trait seems to be doing better but i feel as tho this trait will fall off HARD in single target in favor of other triats. EDIT: Fury of Xuen has also been changed a small bit it is now a 8 second Xuen summon up from a 5 second summon.
I can't say I'm a big fan of the RNG in all of these traits. However, of the 3, the RSK and SCK ones look the most promising. Perhaps if the RSK trait had like a 33% chance to proc at high ilevel it might be more appealing because we could just stack 3 and basically always have it proc. I'd like to know the actual proc chance for the SCK trait before i call it good.

All that said, i'd still take a trait reducing TP's cost by 5 energy as a low ilvl piece over any of these any day. Or a trait that drops our GCD by .1 seconds as a low ilvl piece up to i'd say a maximum of .25 seconds with a high ilvl piece with the condition that our GCD cannot drop below .75 seconds.

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