Dark Iron Questions

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Hey all,

So I'm finally nearing the rep for unlocking Dark Irons (late to the party, I know) and I just have a few RP questions if I decide to stick the toon I role:

- Lore-wise, do DI paladins make sense or are they just added for game-play purposes? How did they come to be? Is it possible for DI to have formed their own version of Paladins before the civil war split, or were they influenced by the Humans?

- Are they, for the most part, considered "evil?". I mean, they used to be just normal Dwarves, so it's hard for me to assume that their whole clan has turned into a mustache-twirling faction.

- As a follow-up, is it possible for a Dark Iron Dwarf to be "honorable"? Are they capable of building compassion for other races in the Alliance? Or are they joining merely out of convenience (e.g. "they enemy of my enemy is my friend")

- Are they considered a weaker clan compared to Bronzebeards and Wildhammers? How do they fare population-wise, in comparison?

Thank you in advance! If there is anything else you feel like adding, please go ahead and do so.
11/13/2018 05:57 PMPosted by Zerukaj
Lore-wise, do DI paladins make sense or are they just added for game-play purposes? How did they come to be? Is it possible for DI to have formed their own version of Paladins before the civil war split, or were they influenced by the Humans?
Humans had the first paladins on Azeroth and in turn trained the dwarves, which wouldn't have started until Year 5. It is currently Year 33, as of BfA.

11/13/2018 05:57 PMPosted by Zerukaj
Are they, for the most part, considered "evil?". I mean, they used to be just normal Dwarves, so it's hard for me to assume that their whole clan has turned into a mustache-twirling faction.
Dark Iron politics are a complicated one, but a paladin cannot wield the Light without believing what they do is good, so it wouldn't much matter either way. Your Dark Iron will think their goals are good regardless in order to be a paladin in the first place.

11/13/2018 05:57 PMPosted by Zerukaj
As a follow-up, is it possible for a Dark Iron Dwarf to be "honorable"? Are they capable of building compassion for other races in the Alliance? Or are they joining merely out of convenience (e.g. "they enemy of my enemy is my friend")
Of course. Individuals are not defined by their race's stereotypes. Your Dark Iron can be any personality you want.

11/13/2018 05:57 PMPosted by Zerukaj
Are they considered a weaker clan compared to Bronzebeards and Wildhammers? How do they fare population-wise, in comparison?
We have no specific numbers in the lore, though I imagine they're likely less populated than the Bronzebeards but much more than the Wildhammers.

A few resources for relevant reading material:
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dark_Iron_dwarf
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Dark_Iron_clan
https://wow.gamepedia.com/Light


Be sure to ignore all "In the RPG" sections are they're not canon.
Greetings, Raveintis Embermane, at your service. I know a bit about dark iron lore to give you any information. But first.

Humans had the first paladins on Azeroth and in turn trained the dwarves, which wouldn't have started until Year 5. It is currently Year 33, as of BfA.


Dark irons had Paladins before human. Humans trained Paladins for the first time during the Second war. Thane Ironstar was a leader and Paladin of the dark iron people centuries to decades before the second war.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Spirit_of_Ironstar

This doesn’t include the fact that Dark Iron had Paladins within BRD during classic wow several years before our people allied with the humans. We had Paladins before the humans but our self isolation and way the Paladins acted may have confused individuals.

Are they, for the most part, considered "evil?". I mean, they used to be just normal Dwarves, so it's hard for me to assume that their whole clan has turned into a mustache-twirling faction.


A common misconception spread by those theiving Wildhammers no doubt. We are not Infact evil, but most dark irons do seem to have a desire for power. Our politics are brutal, individuals go missing and senator seats open up from those who were careless. But while we are closer to the edge of using dirty tricks and evil means we also rigidly follow law and order! The biggest offense to the dark iron people is the law indicating that one should not commit a crime against the dark iron. Punishment is death in the ring of law!

Our Paladins don’t have to be good or evil but believe what they are doing is Infact good. Do you believe protecting the dark iron people is good? Should the treasonous and criminals be punished? Should the dark iron people prosper? If you answered yes to any congrats you can be a Paladin! Our Paladins are closer to how scarlets might take their light.

As a follow-up, is it possible for a Dark Iron Dwarf to be "honorable"? Are they capable of building compassion for other races in the Alliance? Or are they joining merely out of convenience (e.g. "they enemy of my enemy is my friend")


As Cannibal stated yes, we are individuals and any can be different. But this also depends on your version of honor? The dark irons might not see a problem with making a criminal into a slave, he is after all a criminal.

Are they considered a weaker clan compared to Bronzebeards and Wildhammers? How do they fare population-wise, in comparison?


Again I’ll agree with Cannibal. The Bronzebeard have had little to no massive loss of life in their time. The Wildhammers lost Grim Batol due to our war, and the Dark Iron’s lost Thaurissan city due to Ragnaros’s rebirth.
11/13/2018 08:05 PMPosted by Raveintis
Dark irons had Paladins before human. Humans trained Paladins for the first time during the Second war. Thane Ironstar was a leader and Paladin of the dark iron people centuries to decades before the second war.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Spirit_of_Ironstar

This doesn’t include the fact that Dark Iron had Paladins within BRD during classic wow several years before our people allied with the humans. We had Paladins before the humans but our self isolation and way the Paladins acted may have confused individuals.
I agree it's illogical, but this is an unfortunate Word of God moment. Blizzard said paladins on Azeroth were introduced to the dwarves by the humans, so in the case of Ironstar, we simply can't consider him a paladin. We also have to roll with the idea that the Zandalari never considered wearing plate armor while worshipping Rezan for 15,000 years, and not a single high elf priest ever picked up a hammer.

It's stupid, it makes no sense, but that's Blizzard's writing.
If I'd be so bold... what defines Paladin?

What I mean by this is that the classes we play in this case Paladin have a certain feel to them as it were that defines them as Paladins as we know them today.

I can go around in Circles with my Dark Iron friend up there about who were the first shaman and each time I will say Wildhammers and he'll bring up some dead Dark Iron Leader. When the Dark irons were digging in their pits below Ironforge we were on the surface learning the craft. We were the first Dwarven Shaman and I'd argue that to this day.

The problem is Ye ol' Warlock up there has a strong counter argument in that Shaman as we know them today are not the same as what was practiced before the War of Three Hammers. He could be right in this regard. It is unlikely my forefathers communicated with the elemental spirits like we do today or even had the full understanding that they were.

The same can and likely is with Paladins. Tauren Sunwalkers are Paladins in game mechanics only. They were "rediscovered" during the cataclysm and then became playable. The Trolls that worship Rezan are not the same sec of Paladins from the Church of Holy Light any more than the Sunwalkers are.

This is true of Druids. Unless you are recognized by the Cenarion Circle you are not a true druid? The Gilnean's practiced a form of druidism and thus were called Harvest witches. Are they any less druids? What about the Kul'Tirans?

Back to Paladins. What we know as a Paladin: "A Righteous Warrior of the Light" did not come about until the humans trained clerics/priests in the church as warriors. While the mace/hammer is an iconic symbol of the Paladin and their order it is not the only weapon they used. It was a Sword that did battle with The Orcs and it was a sword imbued with the Light that defeated them. That very Sword is used by an iconic Paladin to this day.

The Humans introduced the concept of "The Light" to the Dwarves and in turn the Paladin class we know today. However the Dark Iron version may very well have existed much like the Sunwalkers, Harvest Witches, and whatever a Troll Paladin is called, long before that. Dark irons of the past may have had paladin-like abilities and even wore plate (Anduin is a priest and wears plate for example) but that did not make them Paladins as it is defined today.
11/13/2018 08:41 PMPosted by Cannibal
11/13/2018 08:05 PMPosted by Raveintis
Dark irons had Paladins before human. Humans trained Paladins for the first time during the Second war. Thane Ironstar was a leader and Paladin of the dark iron people centuries to decades before the second war.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Spirit_of_Ironstar

This doesn’t include the fact that Dark Iron had Paladins within BRD during classic wow several years before our people allied with the humans. We had Paladins before the humans but our self isolation and way the Paladins acted may have confused individuals.
I agree it's illogical, but this is an unfortunate Word of God moment. Blizzard said paladins on Azeroth were introduced to the dwarves by the humans, so in the case of Ironstar, we simply can't consider him a paladin. We also have to roll with the idea that the Zandalari never considered wearing plate armor while worshipping Rezan for 15,000 years, and not a single high elf priest ever picked up a hammer.

It's stupid, it makes no sense, but that's Blizzard's writing.


I’m not challenging you personally, can I see that source for it to compare its age against my sources creation? New lore overwrites old, I just can only hope mine is newer... There are a few word of god posts which are outdated now and incorrect at times.

11/13/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Doseki
If I'd be so bold... what defines Paladin?

What I mean by this is that the classes we play in this case Paladin have a certain feel to them as it were that defines them as Paladins as we know them today.

I can go around in Circles with my Dark Iron friend up there about who were the first shaman and each time I will say Wildhammers and he'll bring up some dead Dark Iron Leader. When the Dark irons were digging in their pits below Ironforge we were on the surface learning the craft. We were the first Dwarven Shaman and I'd argue that to this day.

The problem is Ye ol' Warlock up there has a strong counter argument in that Shaman as we know them today are not the same as what was practiced before the War of Three Hammers. He could be right in this regard. It is unlikely my forefathers communicated with the elemental spirits like we do today or even had the full understanding that they were.

The same can and likely is with Paladins. Tauren Sunwalkers are Paladins in game mechanics only. They were "rediscovered" during the cataclysm and then became playable. The Trolls that worship Rezan are not the same sec of Paladins from the Church of Holy Light any more than the Sunwalkers are.

This is true of Druids. Unless you are recognized by the Cenarion Circle you are not a true druid? The Gilnean's practiced a form of druidism and thus were called Harvest witches. Are they any less druids? What about the Kul'Tirans?

Back to Paladins. What we know as a Paladin: "A Righteous Warrior of the Light" did not come about until the humans trained clerics/priests in the church as warriors. While the mace/hammer is an iconic symbol of the Paladin and their order it is not the only weapon they used. It was a Sword that did battle with The Orcs and it was a sword imbued with the Light that defeated them. That very Sword is used by an iconic Paladin to this day.

The Humans introduced the concept of "The Light" to the Dwarves and in turn the Paladin class we know today. However the Dark Iron version may very well have existed much like the Sunwalkers, Harvest Witches, and whatever a Troll Paladin is called, long before that. Dark irons of the past may have had paladin-like abilities and even wore plate (Anduin is a priest and wears plate for example) but that did not make them Paladins as it is defined today.


Though I’d normally fight you to the death, I agree with your words. Let us not forget the Vrykul that followed Tyr down to Tirisfal were likely a form of Paladins as well.
I’m not challenging you personally, can I see that source for it to compare its age against my sources creation? New lore overwrites old, I just can only hope mine is newer... There are a few word of god posts which are outdated now and incorrect at times.
The last time it was reaffirmed was Chronicle Volume 2.
11/13/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Doseki
If I'd be so bold... what defines Paladin?


I'm going to second this. I think this is really the crux of the argument. When Blizzard says paladin, do they mean human paladins or do they mean all "paladins".

A Sunwalker, Blood Knight, Prelate, are only paladin in name only due to game play. Do we, or more importantly blizzard, consider them paladins in the traditional sense?
11/14/2018 12:30 PMPosted by Abrahof
11/13/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Doseki
If I'd be so bold... what defines Paladin?


I'm going to second this. I think this is really the crux of the argument. When Blizzard says paladin, do they mean human paladins or do they mean all "paladins".

A Sunwalker, Blood Knight, Prelate, are only paladin in name only due to game play. Do we, or more importantly blizzard, consider them paladins in the traditional sense?
I third this. I think it makes more sense that humans were simply the first to term them paladins. Before being titled a paladin, Uther was a knight and also an apprentice cleric. Sounds a lot like a paladin to me, just not in name.
11/14/2018 12:30 PMPosted by Abrahof
11/13/2018 09:06 PMPosted by Doseki
If I'd be so bold... what defines Paladin?


I'm going to second this. I think this is really the crux of the argument. When Blizzard says paladin, do they mean human paladins or do they mean all "paladins".

A Sunwalker, Blood Knight, Prelate, are only paladin in name only due to game play. Do we, or more importantly blizzard, consider them paladins in the traditional sense?


By this same logic and for basis of the thread could we not argue that Drak Iron Palladian are indeed Dark Iron Officers but considered Paladins for game purposes.

I find it hard to believe that dark irons had these Paladin like individuals and units but were not officially be taught to be Paladins until at least cataclysm! Remember the dark iron officers have been here since vanilla and Thane Ironstar is much older, why would humans teach a enemy race the ways of being a Paladin?

11/13/2018 11:15 PMPosted by Cannibal
I’m not challenging you personally, can I see that source for it to compare its age against my sources creation? New lore overwrites old, I just can only hope mine is newer... There are a few word of god posts which are outdated now and incorrect at times.
The last time it was reaffirmed was Chronicle Volume 2.


Damn that’s recent, unfortunately my copy is at home I’ll have to check it later today.
Nice discussion going on here, thanks for pitching in with advice everyone!


I think it makes more sense that humans we're simply the first to term them paladins. Before being titled a paladin, Uther was a knight and also an apprentice cleric. Sounds a lot like a paladin to me, just not in name.


I seem to gravitate towards this idea as well, and it definitely makes for more creative freedom regarding Dark Iron Paladins. Having them simply being influenced by Human Knights seems pretty dull imo. I like the idea that they have their own "order" of Light-users.

Speaking of which, I kind of want to come up with a name for the Dark Iron sect, similar to the Blood Knights for Blood Elves, or Prelates for Zandalari. Maybe something like Flame Guards? Forge Wardens? Any other ideas?
So far all the in game Dark Iron Paladins fall under the name Officer. it might be that our Paladins much like some of our priests.(High Justice Grimstone) seem to more along the lines of a dark iron judicial system. Our court systems and law enforcement seem to use light as a way of punishment and judgement.

However there is a Dark Iron elite fighting force that could include Dark Iron Paladins. You might be interested in the Forge Guard.

https://wow.gamepedia.com/Forgeguard

This is where I personally had my Dark Iron Paladin be apart of.

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