Rejuvenate weak in BFA M+?

Druid
Hey fellas, I used to heal +15’s regularly in legion m+ dungeons as a resto druid and have recently picked it back up again as an alt character to my warlock. I run +7’s and 8’s with my druid buddy and his healing spread from spells seems to favor regrowth far more than it does rejuvenate, and I’ve noticed the same as I’ve healed leveling dungeons.

Is rejuv/germinate not as strong as it was in legion for low to moderate damage healing compared to BFA?
Rejuv lost duration and lost overall output per tick, so now it is nowhere near as strong as in Legion. Regrowth also lost it's almost guaranteed crit and Living Seed heal unless you blanket the group with Rejuvs first...which isn't exactly mana efficient... Druids lost quite a bit of healing and there doesn't seem to have been anything brought in or tuned to replace that.

Basically our healing output competitiveness is built around Tranquility+Flourish, without that our healing output is actually pretty poor compared to other classes.
if you're struggling with single target output, consider double swiftmend build with soul of the forest.

Slapping a 9k ticking rejuv on your target will help a ton with throughput, and you still have the option of soul of the forest wild growths to help with your aoe healing.

Also helps on Skittish weeks, like what we had last week, for having more burst heals on tap.
10/09/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Mulcha
if you're struggling with single target output, consider double swiftmend build with soul of the forest.
Is this was most are running in m+? Was thinking about picking resto back up and love this build.
Higher M+ you want Cenarion on tier 1. Extra swiftmend gives you one extra burst, but if your group is doing its job it's the tank you have to worry about. Your ideal scenario should be to put 3-4 layers of hot on the tank, then spam wrath.

We work very well in M+ because we're so mobile and have great utility, but our spot healing and raw burst throughput is kind of garbage. With a flawless group it's awesome, but you can't carry a 98% group like other healers can.
It's similar to legion, rejuv and germ are not there to heal people back to full. They are there for health stabilization and to increase your more direct heals on the target through their mastery benefit. The biggest change from legion as others have said is shorter rejuvs, regrowths crit bonus/ living seed removed, as well as other artifact weapon interactions.

That said, If people need immediate healing then regrowth is what you want to be casting on them, or swiftmend if it is not on CD. Regrowth should make up a good chunk of your healing in m+.
10/09/2018 01:46 PMPosted by Grìz
10/09/2018 01:31 PMPosted by Mulcha
if you're struggling with single target output, consider double swiftmend build with soul of the forest.
Is this was most are running in m+? Was thinking about picking resto back up and love this build.


Its what im running with.
Mana is a non issue for 5 mans unless your tank likes to chain pull, so prosperity is a natural choice. Swiftmend followed by a 200% regrowth/juv is our new NS/touch, and we get two of them, perfect for topping up the tank after a large hit. The wild growth bonus also makes party healing an after thought (as long as they arent being !@#$%).

Germination is a must. Constant 2x juvs on the party makes most boss mechanics laughable and is a great mastery boost on the tank heals.

I dont understand cenarion ward though. It reads off as a garbage talent to me. If someone could explain to me how its beats out 2x swiftmend that would be super.
Cenarion is one of the most mana-efficient spells you have, can be put up long ahead of time so it's off cooldown in the middle of the pull (the 8s hot only starts ticking once they take damage), it's an extra layer of mastery boosting all hots on the tank, and it gives you a longer breather to DPS with wrath. All of this is crucial to M+, where speed, chain pulling, and extreme tank damage are the order of the day.

The extra swiftmend on Prosperity helps you carry one bad dps at the start of the pull, and that's pretty much it. The cooldown reduction isn't negligible by any means, but Cenarion beats it in the long term.

Germination is mediocre at best. You basically have to burn every single GCD and an assload of mana keeping 2x rejuv on the party because the duration is so criminally short, and ideally your DPS are keeping mobs locked down and avoiding mechanics so they don't take damage to begin with. In 5-mans Flourish is universally better. In raids Germination is an outright liability because it ooms you REAL hard just to use it, whereas Flourishing Tranq + WG means all your other healers have like 15-20 seconds to freely DPS, regen, take a Replenishment potion, etc. -- say, during Heroism or a crucial burn phase.
You're also not getting two swiftmends with prosperity. The charges do not have their own cooldown. You get one extra swiftmend cast right away, but you are only gaining an extra swiftmend beyond that every few minutes. You get a bit more leeway in dungeons with time in between pulls, but it still isn't a great talent.

Soul of the forest works just fine without prosperity. Its biggest problem is that it competes with cultivation and incarnation.
10/09/2018 03:06 PMPosted by Sevaryn
Germination is mediocre at best. You basically have to burn every single GCD and an assload of mana keeping 2x rejuv on the party because the duration is so criminally short, and ideally your DPS are keeping mobs locked down and avoiding mechanics so they don't take damage to begin with. In 5-mans Flourish is universally better. In raids Germination is an outright liability because it ooms you REAL hard just to use it, whereas Flourishing Tranq + WG means all your other healers have like 15-20 seconds to freely DPS, regen, take a Replenishment potion, etc. -- say, during Heroism or a crucial burn phase.


Im going to have to strongly disagree with this. For many reasons.
1. op is asking about m+ so everything you said about raids is moot.
2. in 5 mans, mana cost is irelevant. sit and drink between pulls
3. nourish has a 1.5 min cd. i fail to see how that is "universally better" when boss abilities happens quite a lot more frequently, not to mention trash in bfa is the real test. not being able to use an ability for a minute and a half vs using something whenever i choose for an inconsequential amount of mana is a no brainier.
10/09/2018 03:14 PMPosted by Dasilias
You're also not getting two swiftmends with prosperity. The charges do not have their own cooldown. You get one extra swiftmend cast right away, but you are only gaining an extra swiftmend beyond that every few minutes. You get a bit more leeway in dungeons with time in between pulls, but it still isn't a great talent.


But.... I am getting two swiftmends. As a matter of fact..... im getting THREE. Thats how many I can cast during the 30 second cooldown on ward.

Ward heal is only slightly larger than swiftmend, but through soul, i get 200% on my next heal.
Thats 3x SM + 3x 200% buffed heal vs one heal equivalent to a swiftmend.

Im just not seeing the benefit.
10/09/2018 03:48 PMPosted by Tical
2. in 5 mans, mana cost is irelevant. sit and drink between pulls


If your group is good, there IS no between pulls.

3. nourish has a 1.5 min cd. i fail to see how that is "universally better" when boss abilities happens quite a lot more frequently, not to mention trash in bfa is the real test.


You're right -- trash is the real test, and bosses are rarely the threat in the first place. If your DPS is doing their job, one big blast every pull or two is all you need to both patch up the party and leave a lingering breather while you wrath away.

But.... I am getting two swiftmends. As a matter of fact..... im getting THREE. Thats how many I can cast during the 30 second cooldown on ward.


Put up Ward ahead of time. It'll be back up early into the pull, so you have a very strong heal rolling for 16 seconds out of the start, both taking and giving large mastery bonuses. By the time it wears off again, you're already past the hairy part of the pull.

Ward heal is only slightly larger than swiftmend, but through soul, i get 200% on my next heal.
Thats 3x SM + 3x 200% buffed heal vs one heal equivalent to a swiftmend.


You're forgetting mastery bonuses to all the other heals you have rolling. Yes, Cenarion Ward on its own is healing for about a Swiftmend, but on the tank with a zillion other layers up, it's a hell of a lot stronger. You can pre-hot the tank with three layers and Ironbark, which gives you and the tank significant downtime to DPS harder and thin out the pull quickly.

You shouldn't need big throughput outside the tank unless you're fighting Tyrannical Korgus or Gold Serpent or something. If the DPS is taking enough damage to warrant Swiftmend it means they screwed up and probably didn't hit defensives or a healthstone, and if they do it often enough to need more than one Swiftmend they shouldn't be in M+. We're fundamentally not reactive healers -- we have to get ahead and stay ahead of it.
10/09/2018 03:55 PMPosted by Tical
10/09/2018 03:14 PMPosted by Dasilias
You're also not getting two swiftmends with prosperity. The charges do not have their own cooldown. You get one extra swiftmend cast right away, but you are only gaining an extra swiftmend beyond that every few minutes. You get a bit more leeway in dungeons with time in between pulls, but it still isn't a great talent.


But.... I am getting two swiftmends. As a matter of fact..... im getting THREE. Thats how many I can cast during the 30 second cooldown on ward.

Ward heal is only slightly larger than swiftmend, but through soul, i get 200% on my next heal.
Thats 3x SM + 3x 200% buffed heal vs one heal equivalent to a swiftmend.

Im just not seeing the benefit.


And right about the time you'd get off your third swiftmend with prosperity, youd be getting your second cast with any other talent selected.

You don't get your first actual extra swiftmend due to the cd reduction until about 3.3 minutes. So at three minutes you've gotten one extra cast at the start, and one extra cast from the cd reduction. In that same 3.3 minutes you would have gotten roughly 7 cenarion wards (edited see below). That is also assuming you use both your charges right off the bat, which probably isn't ideal.
10/09/2018 04:06 PMPosted by Sevaryn
10/09/2018 03:48 PMPosted by Tical
2. in 5 mans, mana cost is irelevant. sit and drink between pulls


If your group is good, there IS no between pulls.

*4 seconds later*
Put up Ward ahead of time. It'll be back up partway through the pull.


I thought i didnt have any down time to drink?
Now apparently I have lots of downtime to cast ward before pulls.


Forgetting mastery bonuses to all the other heals you have rolling. You shouldn't need throughput outside the tank, and we're fundamentally not reactive healers.


In 5 mans, youre the only healer.... sooo.... when people take extra damage that exceeds my comfort zone of blanket heals, I need to react. ward doesnt offer me any reactive heals nor does it buff my next heal by 200%

I can appreciate the 10% buff to all my heals every 30 sec for 8 sec, but in all honesty most of that is overhealing, and i get all the mastery stacks i need with germination(100% of the time)
Id much rather have a reactionary heal and 200% buff for the tanks next heal, or that dps who might have made a mistake. It happens.
10/09/2018 04:27 PMPosted by Dasilias
In that same 3 minutes you would have gotten roughly 10 cenarion wards.

Who taught you math?
You're right there, should be 7. I'm at work still so I've got 100 on the brain rather than 60.

Swiftmend is 25 secs, prosperity reduces that to 22. So you gain 3 seconds each cycle (the charges do not recharge at the same time).

It is going to take 9 cd cycles to gain you an extra cast compared to the baseline cd recovery. Which is right around 3.3 minutes.

Not including the gcd at the start, you will get it at 198 seconds, where your 11th swiftmend with prosperity would be happening 2 secs before your 9th without prosperity.

Like I said you get a bit more leeway in dungeons with prosperity since there are lulls between pulls that let charges build back up, but you aren't getting close to double the possible swiftmend casts by taking that talent.
I thought i didnt have any down time to drink?
Now apparently I have lots of downtime to cast ward before pulls.


You don't have time to drink because all your downtime is moving between pulls and keeping the tank in range. That doesn't one of the cheapest instant casts in your spellbook though.

In 5 mans, youre the only healer.... sooo.... when people take extra damage that exceeds my comfort zone of blanket heals, I need to react. ward doesnt offer me any reactive heals nor does it buff my next heal by 200%


As I said. If your DPS is taking that much damage you do need to react to, they need to go back to Heroic and learn how to dodge mechanics and control pulls. There are exceptions with unavoidable heavy spot healing, mostly very specific Tyrannical bosses (and some of them, Germination is actually nice). But if you're in even a decently high key, you can't afford to carry idiots who stand in the fire.

I can appreciate the 10% buff to all my heals every 30 sec for 8 sec, but in all honesty most of that is overhealing, and i get all the mastery stacks i need with germination(100% of the time)
Id much rather have a reactionary heal and 200% buff for the tanks next heal, or that dps who might have made a mistake. It happens.


This is a question of how MUCH reactive healing you need. Remember, Prosperity only gives you a very small cooldown reduction overall, so in the long term you're not actually getting many more Swiftmends at all -- you just have one extra charge to play with at the very beginning of the dungeon, and if your DPS is burning hard enough to make a timer you probably won't have both charges back by the next pull.

Soul is still worth taking without Prosperity. When your group knows what they're doing, Flourish and one Swiftmend -> WG are enough. The point is that when you have to be casting those things, you're already behind, and druids tend to fall apart when they lose control because they can't prosecute sustained burst healing well. The point of Cenarion is to never lose control like that in the first place.

There's nothing wrong with overhealing as long as you're not going oom, and if it keeps the tank preemptively at full then that means you can DPS and kill the pack even faster.
I don't see the benefit in Cenarion Ward either. Every time I try it, my healing suffers. I also prefer having Swiftmend readily available.

The cooldown on Ward is just too prohibitive.
well.. now i might be convinced.
Ill try it out this week. I just got so used to the SM play style so much so that not having 2 swiftmends readily available feels like walking around with one shoe.

Still not sold on the nourish for 5mans though... i do agree that its an amazing talent, and would actually prefer to see it baseline. but Not having 2x juv blanket for me is like no shoes at all. Without it I habitually cast anyway and refresh my current one, or panic and cast regrowth, both scenarios being less mana efficient than just using germ.

As far a drinking goes... i generally position myself ahead of the pack when i plan on taking a seat. I use travel form (when allowed) dash, and feral charge the tank if i do need to catch up. I often find that my hots are still ticking from the previous pull (i generally try to make sure they are refreshed at the end of the pull for this reason)

Unless its bursting week, I typically dont have any issues getting a quick drink in between pulls.
You dont have to drink the full duration.... just take what you can.
Flourish really should be baseline TBF.

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