[NEW] Paladins Overall

Paladin
Today I want to address Pros and Cons within the Paladin class in a easy to read way and hope that a developer can take my opinions into consideration or people can share the same opinion and run off it.

Protection Paladin:
Pros
- Currently Protection Paladins are in a really good spot, they are considered to be one of the top 2 tanks currently in Mythic+ and in Raiding.
- High Defense. Currently I feel Protection is really tanky. We have a good mix of Active and Passive mitigation with our Ardent Defender, Guardian of Ancient Kings, Consecration and Mastery.
- Great Utility. With a mix of Light of the Protector, Lay on hands, Hand of protection and Avenger's Shield I feel that Protection pretty much covers everything a tank needs to make it in today's current meta.

Cons
- No stamina increasing Passive. Unlike most other tanks, Protection Paladins do not possess a passive that increases our overall stamina by a %. I do not see this a s a game breaking thing. it would just be nice to see the stamina increase on Grand Crusader back. (if it was that spell)

Holy Paladin:
Pros
- Good balance between instant and hard casting abilities. I personally feel like with a mix of Holy Shock and Light of Dawn, and Holy Prism (which is weak), Holy is able to move and heal like many other healers and get the job done in PvE and PvP... somewhat.
- Great utility. Holy is one of the only healing specs where your abilities may seem to be deemed as really good. Being able to cast blessings that allow you to be free from snares and roots, Immune to physical damage and completely mitigating 100% damage from a party member all with their own separate setbacks seems balanced to me. This allows Holy to be a very good healing spec for PvP.
- Mana Sustain. Currently I feel that Holy is very good with mana conservation when played correctly.

Cons
- Mastery. Holy Paladin's mastery has to be the single worst mastery every introduced to the game. Basing how much we heal by how close we are (proximity) to our target can add a certain play style and difficulty that very few may enjoy playing. For the others, not so much. Being forced to play out of your role in a sense makes the Holy mastery make you feel not like a healer. In PvP we are more susceptible to CC because in order to maximize or utilize our mastery properly we have to pretty much be in melee range which no other healer has to do. This makes it difficult to kite and LOS as a Holy Paladin. Coming from cataclysm where whenever you heal with your Divine Heal (Holy Light now) you would put a small stack able shield on your target makes the current mastery seem like a joke that has no good use to it.
[Personally I feel that this is the current major problem with Holy]

Retribution Paladin:
Pros
- High burst damage. Currently Retribution is one of the highest on demand damage bursting spec in WoW. This is what they are known for, once you see those wings you better run.
- Decent utility. Retribution has some great utility buffs and abilities allowing them to mitigate Physical damage from a party member, to being able to remove stuns and reduce their duration for a time frame after. Being able to heal with Word of Glory can change a game with healing 3 party members for a decent amount.

Cons
- Lack of mobility. This is an issue that MANY Retribution and non Retribution players have notices. With Retribution we have 2 main mobility spells: Divine Steed and Blessing of Freedom. These are wonderful abilities but I feel they in most situations are useless. If you are trying to catch an enemy, naturally you want to Divine Steed to cover distance but if you are slowed you are in trouble as it completely makes it useless. But have no fear! If we use Blessing of Freedom before we Divine Steed we can guarantee a successful gap close. Not really. One quick purge and that buff is gone, again making both spells useless and having to wait another 30 seconds - 1 minute to be able to catch up to our target.
- Lack of CC. This is somewhat of a run on from the previous paragraph of mobility. I love Hammer of Justice, I think that the talent Fist of Justice along with it make it a very good CC, so I am not talking about Hard CC i'm talking about sticking on your target CC. Every other melee class has an ability or passive that allows them to stick on top of their target without fail. Yes we have Hand of Hindrance it is a wonderful ability, I love the 70% slow its really nice to have, but being able to dispel it makes it useless against healer classes and of course Druids. Warrior Hamstring, Rogue Poisons, Feral Passive, and Hunter Concussive Shot allow them to stick on their target nonstop and all those abilities have no cool down. Paladin is the only melee class with a slow that can be dispelled and rendered useless in most situations. Law and Order is puts a small Hello Kitty band-aid on this issue. It is a PvP talent so we have to sacrifice another talent which is better and it as well is also dispensable... with a cool down because you have to wait for Blade of Justice to proc or be off cool down.
- No gap closes. Besides Divine steed we have no way to get to our targets. We have no Bling, Charge, Leap, Pulls, or Shadow Step. I find this an issue because on top of having poor mobility we don't have anything to allow ourselves to instantly get on top of our target.
- No fillers. Retribution has 3 main abilities, Judgement, Crusader Strike, and Blade of Justice. These are our Holy Power generators and main source of damage and in many instances we are left sitting there not being able to attack our targets because we are waiting for our abilities to come up. These abilities have a decently long cool down for a generating ability. With our spec being like this, compared to other melee DPS specs we do not have sustained pressure. Once we press all those buttons we have to wait, nothing else is doing damage and keeping up constant pressure on the target. Rogues have poison ticks, Feral have Bleed ticks, Warriors have their mastery bleed and a ton of fillers with attack speed, and Hunters and Death Knight's have Dots, and pets to keep their target on their toes. Paladins don't have any pressure to keep on the target. Back when we had Seal of Truth put a Dot on the target doing damage overtime adding a small amount of overtime pressure. We now don't have that pressure.

Suggestions:
- Add stamina buff back to Protection Paladins (Not major)
- Change the Holy paladin mastery
- Give Retribution a filler ability not just generators.
- Give Retribution more mobility. In Legion during our first quest chain in Argus we are accompanied by Turalyon to help kill 3 bosses. On the last boss he engages that boss by Leaping with light and smashing down. I personally feel like this would be an awesome ability Like Heroic Leap or charge to be added to the Ret Kit. it could be called Holy Pursuit :)
- Give Retribution a Hamstring type of ability

Traits are not certain so I do not want to go on a rant about how they could be fixed because I'm sure blizzard has tons of requests on that topic :P

Thank you for reading this far!
I wish to hear what the community has to say

Sincerely,
-Vuun
When they put in this ridiculous holy mastery, we had the talent to let it radiate from our beacon target. This masked the problem with the mastery because we had a workaround.

Without that talent, we’re all left with this nightmare of a mastery with no way to mitigate it.

Will Blizzard listen? My confidence is low.
Replacing Steed with an awesome flashy leap to target ability maybe with added benefit of a small aoe damage, is all Ret needs.

I tend to use the other abilities as fillers. Like, quick heal or heal of others.
People would lose their minds if paladins gained another cc in pvp. Agree emphatically on mastery. Healing as holy makes me feel like I’m scrambling playing catch-up the moment pull starts
Make repentance have no cast time, like it used to be. Maybe make the no cast time, a ret only thing. Make it baseline, or keep it talented, I wouldn't care much. The steed is probably the worst "gap closer" they could have implemented. I understand that now that we have a real snare, we would get some tradeoffs, but we lost way too much.

Back in WoD we had two freedoms, emancipate (remove snares on no cd but was mana expensive), long arm of the law (run speed on judgment), and pursuit of justice (+15% run and mounted speed). We gave all that up for a crappy ranged snare, and that isn't even counting the other things we lost, like our support abilities; second BoP, Blessing of Sacrifice (x2 if I remember right), healing exe sentence, sacred shield, our selfless healer is a gimp version of what it used to be, word of glory wasn't on a ridiculous cooldown, although it wasn't an AoE Heal. I am sure there are things I forgot about, but it's pretty stupid how much we gave up, for a dispellable snare on a cooldown, and a crappy horse that is on a 45 second cooldown, with no snare immunities.
I agree with everything you said except about mastery. Resto Shaman mastery is by far the worst. It increases your healing based on a percentage of a percentage and if you are relying on that extra healing in a raid, chances are the rest of your healers are afk. It works nice in specific situations like fetid where you know one tank is going to get thrashed, but other than that it is lack luster.

I was resto shammy since vanilla and swapped. I like the idea of a melee healer (played a bear shaman in Connan and a warpriest in WAR) and the ability to walk toward someone to heal them helps me not go raid frame blind a bit.
10/19/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Fouladin
I agree with everything you said except about mastery. Resto Shaman mastery is by far the worst. It increases your healing based on a percentage of a percentage and if you are relying on that extra healing in a raid, chances are the rest of your healers are afk. It works nice in specific situations like fetid where you know one tank is going to get thrashed, but other than that it is lack luster.

I was resto shammy since vanilla and swapped. I like the idea of a melee healer (played a bear shaman in Connan and a warpriest in WAR) and the ability to walk toward someone to heal them helps me not go raid frame blind a bit.


I disagree. Their worst case scenario is still twice as good as our worst case scenario
10/19/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Fouladin
I agree with everything you said except about mastery. Resto Shaman mastery is by far the worst. It increases your healing based on a percentage of a percentage and if you are relying on that extra healing in a raid, chances are the rest of your healers are afk. It works nice in specific situations like fetid where you know one tank is going to get thrashed, but other than that it is lack luster.

I was resto shammy since vanilla and swapped. I like the idea of a melee healer (played a bear shaman in Connan and a warpriest in WAR) and the ability to walk toward someone to heal them helps me not go raid frame blind a bit.


I can agree to a certain degree with your statement, again I feel that the Holy paladin mastery caters to a certain minority of people who like that type of play style. As far as PvE yes shaman mastery could be seen as terrible. But having to be next to the tank to maximize your mastery leaves you vulnerable to Boss cleave and harder to avoid certain mechanics. I also feel that Shamans are more towards topping off their team and their utility in PvE more than sheer hard healing. They have good AOE which is good for PvE not really PvP but Holy is just terrible in both PvE and PvP
10/17/2018 10:27 PMPosted by Vuun
- Currently Protection Paladins are in a really good spot, they are considered to be one of the top 2 tanks currently in Mythic+ and in Raiding.


Actually,we are not.We are fine,middle of the pack,so no nerfs needed.But BM ,DH,and DK are who you are looking for to be considered in the top 2 for M+ and raiding.
10/17/2018 10:27 PMPosted by Vuun


Protection Paladin:
Pros
- Currently Protection Paladins are in a really good spot, they are considered to be one of the top 2 tanks currently in Mythic+ and in Raiding.
- High Defense. Currently I feel Protection is really tanky. We have a good mix of Active and Passive mitigation with our Ardent Defender, Guardian of Ancient Kings, Consecration and Mastery.
- Great Utility. With a mix of Light of the Protector, Lay on hands, Hand of protection and Avenger's Shield I feel that Protection pretty much covers everything a tank needs to make it in today's current meta.

Cons
- No stamina increasing Passive. Unlike most other tanks, Protection Paladins do not possess a passive that increases our overall stamina by a %. I do not see this a s a game breaking thing. it would just be nice to see the stamina increase on Grand Crusader back. (if it was that spell)


Are you serious? Prot Paladin is at best middling for M+ dungeons. Blood-DK is so ridiculously overpowered in M+, that it doesn't even matter what class is second (which is actually DH, third is Monk). I have 950 Raider.io, and I constantly get denied into M10+ premade groups (this week is especially bad with Sanguine affix).

Aside from the totally broken (in a bad way), Gaurdian Druid and Prot Warrior, Prot Paladin doesn't really bring much utility. Sure we can silence a whole bunch with Avenger's Shield, but the underlying problem is you're holding back DPS on a *timed* dungeon. The other utilities you mentioned are on relatively long CD's (especially LoH).

Mitigation wise, SoTR uptime is a huge problem. Whenever SoTR falls off, you're going to be hit HARD. You can get more SoTR uptime, but at the cost of DPS, which again, is a concern in M+ due to the timer.

Overall, the Prot Paladin class is middle of the road, but the main problem is that Blood-DK is incredibly overpowered and it makes you look like a garbage class.
You want to see good class design Google 5th edition D&D paladin and its subclasses (specs). Funny how d&d heavily influenced early wow. Then later editions of d&d were influenced by wow. Maybe wow devs should look back at d&d and pathfinder for impression once again.
Protection Paladin:
Pros
- Currently Protection Paladins are in a really good spot, they are considered to be one of the top 2 tanks currently in Mythic+ and in Raiding.
- High Defense. Currently I feel Protection is really tanky. We have a good mix of Active and Passive mitigation with our Ardent Defender, Guardian of Ancient Kings, Consecration and Mastery.
- Great Utility. With a mix of Light of the Protector, Lay on hands, Hand of protection and Avenger's Shield I feel that Protection pretty much covers everything a tank needs to make it in today's current meta.


we're in the middle, DK being a monster right now.
and our utility will get you declined in every high M+ you try to queue, because sure, we have good utility but no group will ever think of inviting you because you have some of the spells you mentioned.

and if you lose SoTR uptime, you'll get the full incoming damage, no passive mitigation or more stamina to cover you up.

PD: have you ever heard someone say "guys, we need a Prot pally over that DK, because he have 'LoH', 'HoF' and 'LotP' wich he will surely will use on us".??
While it would be nice for Prot Paladin to be buffed a little... With the current state of things I definitely think Warrior and Druid come first here.

Warrior needs blocks rage cost reduced and Ignore Pain off the damn GCD...

Druids I don't know... I don't like Druids, but they need a buff of some form.

Ret - is !@#$ing awful, and bottom of Uldir Mythic and getting worse each week (Crusader Strike shouldn't have a Cool down or Charges, we need Divine Hammer back for the AOE struggles - really don't want us to be one hit Divine Storm wonders again - and our passive movement should be increased by like 10% as part of the class)...

Holy - I can't really commentate, but it's part of the reason a few friends have quit the game.

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