"Good" build vs "Bad" build

Demon Hunter
10/27/2018 01:19 PMPosted by Ayypapi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWHB3YwQF5Q633k total healing. Topped out at 5.9k HPS in the 2 minute timeframe. Tried to max dps for fratality to be fair. I tested this build on the 4 grouped target dummies and could pull 14-15k dps.
Actually watched videos.

You repeatedly used Spirit Bomb to consume 1-3 souls. You should really focus on learning to properly play a build before trashing it.

Now specifically regarding Spirit Bomb v Gluttony, no one has ever argued that Gluttony does less HPS. I'm pretty sure we are all capable of checking simc or askMrRobot or just doing some napkin math. Unfortunately, HPS is a poor argument as to why a talent should or should not be taken. Just as an example, you prefer taking Void Reaver over Soul Barrier. Why would you do this if the only thing that matters is HPS?

There are two glaring issues with Gluttony:
    It is uncontrollable.
    It competes with Spirit Bomb.


For the first point - if Gluttony always activated on an attack that dropped us down to 30% HP, with a 1-minute CD, it would be vastly superior to what it is now. If it simply reduced the CD of meta by 50%, it would be vastly superior. The issue is that tanks (and especially demon hunters) are not just mana sponges that absorb a very consistent amount of damage. A proc-based meta can sometimes be extremely helpful - It can also sometimes be completely useless. If it procs even while you are actively tanking, but at full HP, and you dodge/parry all attacks, it was also useless. Effectively, in order for Gluttony's HPS to be effective healing, it requires luck.

The second point is just that Spirit Bomb itself is extremely powerful on its own. Everyone knows that it increases our damage by 20-40% (again, sim it if you need to), but consider the value of a zero-cooldown ability that consumes all 5 souls when you want to. On a heavy-hitting boss, you could 'pool' souls and then Spirit Bomb the instant you take damage, consuming all 5 souls. It also allows us to have a hit-and-run style of gameplay in dungeons, amassing souls on a target, going in for AoE damage, then stepping back out while our active mitigation is down. Without Spirit Bomb, we'd be losing a lot of damage, and, with it, threat.
10/29/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Chaosbug
10/27/2018 01:19 PMPosted by Ayypapi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWHB3YwQF5Q633k total healing. Topped out at 5.9k HPS in the 2 minute timeframe. Tried to max dps for fratality to be fair. I tested this build on the 4 grouped target dummies and could pull 14-15k dps.
Actually watched videos.

You repeatedly used Spirit Bomb to consume 1-3 souls. You should really focus on learning to properly play a build before trashing it.

Now specifically regarding Spirit Bomb v Gluttony, no one has ever argued that Gluttony does less HPS. I'm pretty sure we are all capable of checking simc or askMrRobot or just doing some napkin math. Unfortunately, HPS is a poor argument as to why a talent should or should not be taken. Just as an example, you prefer taking Void Reaver over Soul Barrier. Why would you do this if the only thing that matters is HPS?

There are two glaring issues with Gluttony:
    It is uncontrollable.
    It competes with Spirit Bomb.


For the first point - if Gluttony always activated on an attack that dropped us down to 30% HP, with a 1-minute CD, it would be vastly superior to what it is now. If it simply reduced the CD of meta by 50%, it would be vastly superior. The issue is that tanks (and especially demon hunters) are not just mana sponges that absorb a very consistent amount of damage. A proc-based meta can sometimes be extremely helpful - It can also sometimes be completely useless. If it procs even while you are actively tanking, but at full HP, and you dodge/parry all attacks, it was also useless. Effectively, in order for Gluttony's HPS to be effective healing, it requires luck.

The second point is just that Spirit Bomb itself is extremely powerful on its own. Everyone knows that it increases our damage by 20-40% (again, sim it if you need to), but consider the value of a zero-cooldown ability that consumes all 5 souls when you want to. On a heavy-hitting boss, you could 'pool' souls and then Spirit Bomb the instant you take damage, consuming all 5 souls. It also allows us to have a hit-and-run style of gameplay in dungeons, amassing souls on a target, going in for AoE damage, then stepping back out while our active mitigation is down. Without Spirit Bomb, we'd be losing a lot of damage, and, with it, threat.


I honestly thinks he/she knows spirit bomb is better. Bet he/she is just trolling....any one that has to post on alts to say they agree with him/her has to be trolling....or he/she is one sick and lonely puppy.
10/29/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Chaosbug
10/27/2018 01:19 PMPosted by Ayypapi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWHB3YwQF5Q633k total healing. Topped out at 5.9k HPS in the 2 minute timeframe. Tried to max dps for fratality to be fair. I tested this build on the 4 grouped target dummies and could pull 14-15k dps.
Actually watched videos.

You repeatedly used Spirit Bomb to consume 1-3 souls. You should really focus on learning to properly play a build before trashing it.

Now specifically regarding Spirit Bomb v Gluttony, no one has ever argued that Gluttony does less HPS. I'm pretty sure we are all capable of checking simc or askMrRobot or just doing some napkin math. Unfortunately, HPS is a poor argument as to why a talent should or should not be taken. Just as an example, you prefer taking Void Reaver over Soul Barrier. Why would you do this if the only thing that matters is HPS?

There are two glaring issues with Gluttony:
    It is uncontrollable.
    It competes with Spirit Bomb.


For the first point - if Gluttony always activated on an attack that dropped us down to 30% HP, with a 1-minute CD, it would be vastly superior to what it is now. If it simply reduced the CD of meta by 50%, it would be vastly superior. The issue is that tanks (and especially demon hunters) are not just mana sponges that absorb a very consistent amount of damage. A proc-based meta can sometimes be extremely helpful - It can also sometimes be completely useless. If it procs even while you are actively tanking, but at full HP, and you dodge/parry all attacks, it was also useless. Effectively, in order for Gluttony's HPS to be effective healing, it requires luck.

The second point is just that Spirit Bomb itself is extremely powerful on its own. Everyone knows that it increases our damage by 20-40% (again, sim it if you need to), but consider the value of a zero-cooldown ability that consumes all 5 souls when you want to. On a heavy-hitting boss, you could 'pool' souls and then Spirit Bomb the instant you take damage, consuming all 5 souls. It also allows us to have a hit-and-run style of gameplay in dungeons, amassing souls on a target, going in for AoE damage, then stepping back out while our active mitigation is down. Without Spirit Bomb, we'd be losing a lot of damage, and, with it, threat.


Only used it when I would have 4 souls. Can't help the auto consumption of souls without being in a wide open area and standing still. Another flaw of the build. Didn't read anything else.

Haven't used any alts on this forum.

I'm no longer playing WoW, but it's still fun to come back here and see the basement dwellers get their panties in a bunch when someone has different ideas than them.

I'm honestly not even sure why people are so upset about this... I've even admitted spirit bomb will give you a significant amount more multi target dps. I, and I'm sure some others, would, however, prefer a more defensive and easily manageable build, and there's absolutely no question that my preferred build in the OP is more defensive.
Mah dude. If you like to play with that setup then by ALL means do. If it works for yah then it's not stupid. HOWEVER the area in which most people have been taking issue with you is that you have been basically saying "MAH BUILD BETER THAN URS!!!" across several different threads. That is were the issue is arising. Not that you have a different idea or play style from the standard setup, but that you are trying to convince everyone else that it is better. Data doesn't lie dude. SB is better period. The videos don't help really with your argument because you could've cherry picked the best one for gluttony where you had the most proccs. WE can't know how many times you filmed you doing that to get the best result. So again if you like to run that build then by ALL means do so, just please stop trying to convince everyone else that you're right and everyone else is wrong.
10/29/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Chaosbug
Actually watched videos.

You repeatedly used Spirit Bomb to consume 1-3 souls. You should really focus on learning to properly play a build before trashing it.
There's a lot more wrong than just Spirit Bombing with 1-3 souls.

- He spends so much time using his leaps that they effectively cost him a GCD or two. He's leaving his actual GCD unspent when he uses a leap.
- Empty GCDs are not being spent with Throw Glaive or Fiery Brand or other less frequently used abilities.
- He's using Fracture's last charge when there are other abilities that need to be put on cooldown. You gain the most DPS out of Fracture (and all cooldowns) by not capping on charges; whether you have 0 or 1 charges at any given point in time makes no difference. For example, compare opening "Fracture -> Immo Aura -> Fracture" with "Fracture -> Fracture -> Immo Aura." Both use the same abilities, neither cap on Fracture charges after the first GCD, but the former uses Immo Aura 1 GCD earlier, which means that Immo Aura comes off of cooldown 1 GCD earlier, increasing DPS. While both kept Fracture on cooldown, the former kept Immo Aura on cooldown for 1 more GCD.

Notice the he actually opens "Fracture -> Fracture -> Spirit Bomb -> Sigil of Flame -> Immo Aura." Immo Aura is higher priority than Sigil of Flame, so Immo Aura should go before. Immo Aura should be used before Spirit Bomb as Immo Aura has a cooldown and Spirit Bomb doesn't, and Immo Aura can buff Spirit Bomb by giving it its 5th Soul Fragment. There's literally no benefit to Spirit Bombing early except for getting its debuff up for increased healing. And as per my paragraph above, Immo Aura should be used before the 2nd Fracture.
10/29/2018 07:56 PMPosted by Ayypapi
Haven't used any alts on this forum.


That's objectively disprovable and you know it. Stop lying to cover up your desperate and pathetic BS, man.
10/29/2018 07:56 PMPosted by Ayypapi
Haven't used any alts on this forum.


Now this is categorically untrue, we've seen this happen multiple times. No one minds if you like Gluttony, but you've said completely incorrect stuff (such as the idea that souls are consumed when on low HP, or that Gluttony procs any more than around once a minute) that when corrected on, you've simply doubled down. You've frequently gone on your alts to pretend there's support for your posts. I saw the post count go up only after my first post in this thread. People can see the exact same number of posts, and an account-bound achievement done around the same time - you know, things people look for to see if someone is using alts.
You can’t post on forums if you’re unsubscribed afaik, pretty funny you say you don’t play wow anymore.

Either amazing troll or delusional idiot.

Don’t fall for the troll guys.
10/30/2018 09:13 AMPosted by Bogeranski
You can’t post on forums if you’re unsubscribed afaik, pretty funny you say you don’t play wow anymore.

Either amazing troll or delusional idiot.

Don’t fall for the troll guys.


Ironic calling someone an idiot when you don't realize that you can still play after you unsubscribe until your month runs out.
10/29/2018 10:52 PMPosted by Corpsenine
10/29/2018 10:03 AMPosted by Chaosbug
Actually watched videos.

You repeatedly used Spirit Bomb to consume 1-3 souls. You should really focus on learning to properly play a build before trashing it.
There's a lot more wrong than just Spirit Bombing with 1-3 souls.

- He spends so much time using his leaps that they effectively cost him a GCD or two. He's leaving his actual GCD unspent when he uses a leap.
- Empty GCDs are not being spent with Throw Glaive or Fiery Brand or other less frequently used abilities.
- He's using Fracture's last charge when there are other abilities that need to be put on cooldown. You gain the most DPS out of Fracture (and all cooldowns) by not capping on charges; whether you have 0 or 1 charges at any given point in time makes no difference. For example, compare opening "Fracture -> Immo Aura -> Fracture" with "Fracture -> Fracture -> Immo Aura." Both use the same abilities, neither cap on Fracture charges after the first GCD, but the former uses Immo Aura 1 GCD earlier, which means that Immo Aura comes off of cooldown 1 GCD earlier, increasing DPS. While both kept Fracture on cooldown, the former kept Immo Aura on cooldown for 1 more GCD.

Notice the he actually opens "Fracture -> Fracture -> Spirit Bomb -> Sigil of Flame -> Immo Aura." Immo Aura is higher priority than Sigil of Flame, so Immo Aura should go before. Immo Aura should be used before Spirit Bomb as Immo Aura has a cooldown and Spirit Bomb doesn't, and Immo Aura can buff Spirit Bomb by giving it its 5th Soul Fragment. There's literally no benefit to Spirit Bombing early except for getting its debuff up for increased healing. And as per my paragraph above, Immo Aura should be used before the 2nd Fracture.


Lmao none of this over analyzation nit picking would make the spirit bomb build any better.

I only used bomb when 4 frags should be up. Like I said, I can't control the auto consume. Another flaw of the build. If I Fracture twice I should have 4 frags and will lose bomb. Not my fault that the frags auto consume because they spawned too close or my character moved an inch. You'll be dealing with these things in a real scenario.
10/31/2018 09:26 PMPosted by Ayypapi
You'll be dealing with these things in a real scenario.


I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but you can avoid moving simply by not pressing your movement keys. And in most fights, you can also anticipate movement and hold your factures. Oh, and there's a handy buff icon that shows how many souls you have, which you can use to track whether or not you should be using Bomb yet, instead of simply blindly using it after every pair of Fractures while hoping around like a caffeinated squirrel.

Oh, and you're also wasting a ton of time and fragments by manually targeting both Sigil and Infernal Strike. You are aware that there's such a thing as [@player] and [@cursor] macros, right? And using Infernal Strike rotationally on an [@player] macro doesn't actually move your character, and thus doesn't consume soul fragments. Also, you never want to land more than 2 Sigils on a target at once. They'll roll like ignite for the 2nd one, but if you apply a 3rd one to the target before the first (combined pair) falls off, you'll lose a tick's worth of damage off the 3rd due to weird coding.

Basically, you're bad at the standard build, it shows in the video, and your results at 100% invalid because of it.
11/01/2018 06:28 AMPosted by Xaedys
10/31/2018 09:26 PMPosted by Ayypapi
You'll be dealing with these things in a real scenario.


I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but you can avoid moving simply by not pressing your movement keys. And in most fights, you can also anticipate movement and hold your factures. Oh, and there's a handy buff icon that shows how many souls you have, which you can use to track whether or not you should be using Bomb yet, instead of simply blindly using it after every pair of Fractures while hoping around like a caffeinated squirrel.

Oh, and you're also wasting a ton of time and fragments by manually targeting both Sigil and Infernal Strike. You are aware that there's such a thing as [@player] and [@cursor] macros, right? And using Infernal Strike rotationally on an [@player] macro doesn't actually move your character, and thus doesn't consume soul fragments. Also, you never want to land more than 2 Sigils on a target at once. They'll roll like ignite for the 2nd one, but if you apply a 3rd one to the target before the first (combined pair) falls off, you'll lose a tick's worth of damage off the 3rd due to weird coding.

Basically, you're bad at the standard build, it shows in the video, and your results at 100% invalid because of it.


Newbies coming into this topic... Please don't listen to this guy. He's a close-minded elitist and is projecting. Don't just go for the bandwagon build. Try out different builds in different situations and see which one you like best and works well for you. I went straight for the SB build as a newb and it was a terrible mistake. You're not a tank--you're just a slightly tankier bad DPS.
You have an incredibly bizarre and unsavory hate fetish for the Spirit Bomb build, and the way you post on your alts reveals you as a troll who only has one shtick or a deeply disturbed individual. Seek help.
For what it's worth, I really wish the Gluttony build were more competitive. More PPM or a slightly longer duration (6 or 7 seconds) would probably push me into it full time.

As it is now though, I don't think it's viable outside of raid tanking, where you're constantly taking heavy damage and make the most use of the proc.
Honestly who cares, play what you want, you will never match a Blood DK with any talent combination anyway
Gluttony can give you higher hps than spirit bomb, for sure.
Spirit bomb is still the better talent for reasons already said (on demand healing, less rng, more dps, better aoe threat, gluttony RNG)
You're obviously not going to take gluttony over spirit bomb in M+.

Look at the logs for the top healing parses in uldir (dps is obviously SB) and some are gluttony, but the majority are still SB.
For a better understanding look at talents on first kills, and spirit bomb again is top.

My dude it's ok to be wrong, and it's also ok to play however you want.

Also I don't use mouseover macros : (

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