Daily Thread: M+ Concerns

General Discussion
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Blues:

    1. Any plans to make M+ more accessible to pugs?

    2. Any plans to remove RIO/ modify the information it can access from the API?

    3. Can we have confirmation that Fortified will not appear on +4 keys and lower?

    4. Any plans to update the in-game UI for the LFD tool which would allow us to be more selective about who we recruit (i.e. rating attached to completion rate for M+ which includes different factors and simply not timer)?

    5. Re-design of dungeons at lower keys to have certain trash packs removed so they can be more easily completed?

    6. Can you provide some insight of the current participation/ retention rate of M+? My current experience with it shows that majority of guild/ friends have stopped participating outside of their weekly +10.


I will be creating/ bumping this thread daily until we get a response.

Thanks,
A concerned customer

------------------------------------------------

Let's address a moot, tired, and pedantic point constantly made: form your own groups/ play with friends or guildies/ tank or heal.

    1. Form your own group: if you're in-game right now, open up the LFD tool and count the number of groups that are as follows:

<DPS><DPS<DPS>
<DPS><DPS<DPS>
<DPS><DPS<DPS><TANK>
<DPS><DPS<DPS>
<DPS><DPS<DPS>
<DPS><DPS<DPS><HEALER>

It's the majority of groups that have the following compositions. Forming your groups does not guarantee success or even the attempt to complete a key. Let's stop with this nonsense.

    2. Playing with friends/ guildies:


I've said it before and I'll say it again: if you have access to friends/ guildies to play with you at anytime, anyplace, whenever, you represent a tiny minority of the player base. Most WoW players level alts, do WQs, and consume solo-based content. There is no cohesive or accessible UI (the Communities tabs is a joke) or in-game function enabled to meet people easier than the LFD. This isn't 2006. Most people have stopped playing WoW and most people aren't interested in scheduling M+ runs. M+ should be a pick-up activity in line with real life scrimmages that can be accomplished effortlessly. Remove the MDI-driven design from the BfA dungeons. Stupid stupid thing to do.

    3. Tank or Heal:


Unfortunately, if you want to complete keys and get chance at loot reliably, that's the only way to do so. I've had to do it on both this guy and my alt. But at this point, we're forcing a typical play style on players who are not interested in playing that spec. Moreover, what about classes that can't do either? Or those that can but are awful (Prot Warrior, Guardian Druid)?

Also with Azerite gear, itemization for specs takes twice as long because you have to farm for such gear. This is not a realistic option for most people who just want to freakin' pug and have access to some decent loot.

To all the elitists/ anti-fun RIO idiots: get over yourselves. You're discriminating now against people who have low IO scores but soon enough, you'll be bickering amongst yourselves and become to selective in who you pick, nobody will be left to play.

At the end of the day, the RIO diehards get the ire of the regular players because you've taken the fun out of trying PvE content and possible failing at it. You've prevented an entire group of players from learning the damn instance in the first place simply because of your selfish desire to get your key completed in time, be damned everyone else. You should be ashamed of creating toxicity in a game already rampant with toxicity.
11/07/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Cuckchan
Blues:

    1. Any plans to make M+ more accessible to pugs?

    2. Any plans to remove RIO/ modify the information it can access from the API?

    3. Can we have confirmation that Fortified will not appear on +4 keys and lower?

    4. Any plans to update the in-game UI for the LFD tool which would allow us to be more selective about who we recruit (i.e. rating attached to completion rate for M+ which includes different factors and simply not timer)?

    5. Re-design of dungeons at lower keys to have certain trash packs removed so they can be more easily completed?

    6. Can you provide some insight of the current participation/ retention rate of M+? My current experience with it shows that majority of guild/ friends have stopped participating outside of their weekly +10.


I will be creating/ bumping this thread daily until we get a response.

Thanks,
A concerned customer


Many good suggestions.

They need to get the super sized nerf hammer out and make Mythic plus actually doable for the common player.
Mythic+ is fine, I pug it all the time..got my raider io almost 900 just from pugs alone..Not everything needs to be nerfed...I'm getting sick of people that find stuff challenging and wanting to get things nerfed, it's like the cata heroics all over again..but this is mythic+ and it's supposed to be challenging...I am a common player, I don't raid and I am very casual player, I'm loving mythic+..and I say again, I've pugged every run I've done this expansion, I don't even have a guild...I for one like the challenge and it's my end game content...Mythic+ should be hard and challenging, why don't some of you seem to get that through your head? Maybe it's okay if the lowest skilled players can't do it...just like not everyone can raid mythic..same applies for mythic+...Mythic raids are challenging and so is mythic+...That's how it should be....Mythic+ is an alternative to raiding....and it's not for everyone and it was never meant to be for everyone!
The problem is I'm hearing "Make M+ more PUG friendly" at the same time I'm hearing people complain about how bad PUG groups in M+ are.

What does "more friendly" mean, what doesn't feel good about PUG in M+ right now?
11/07/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Cuckchan
1. Any plans to make M+ more accessible to pugs?


Does every single type of content need to be designed first and foremost for pugging? There's no lack of solo-pug content and systems in this game. Can't we have like 2 or 3 things that are primarily geared towards organized groups?
I think these are great ideas.

But it is by game design that mythic+ are difficult to pug. It is intended to be elite content for elite players. If that's not you, you don't count, despite the attempt to portray them as content for everybody.
Mythic+ is fine, I pug it all the time..got my raider io almost 900 just from pugs alone..Not everything needs to be nerfed...I'm getting sick of people that find stuff challenging and wanting to get things nerfed, it's like the cata heroics all over again..but this is mythic+ and it's supposed to be challenging...I am a common player, I don't raid and I am very casual player, I'm loving mythic+..and I say again, I've pugged every run I've done this expansion, I don't even have a guid.


Well said.

All people have to do if they can't get into a group is start their own
11/07/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Tetsubin
11/07/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Cuckchan
1. Any plans to make M+ more accessible to pugs?

Does every single type of content need to be designed first and foremost for pugging? There's no lack of solo-pug content and systems in this game. Can't we have like 2 or 3 things that are primarily geared towards organized groups?

Please list these "solo-pug content and systems in the game". I'm not seeing a long list of these things in BfA content. I'm just seeing a few trivial things that nobody does because it's boring and unrewarding.
What do you mean "more accessible to pugs"?

You are literally given your own key that you can do whatever you want with. Blizzard can't make it any more accessible to pugs without literally forcing people to have to group with you ... but think about that from your perspective and realize that would also mean you would be forced to group with other players you might not want to group with and you'll realize why it works the way it does now and why that's the best and only way it really CAN work for this kind of content.
11/07/2018 03:29 PMPosted by Jubearlee
The problem is I'm hearing "Make M+ more PUG friendly" at the same time I'm hearing people complain about how bad PUG groups in M+ are.

What does "more friendly" mean, what doesn't feel good about PUG in M+ right now?


More pug friendly means nerf it hard so all the coordination issues associated with pugging can be brute forced.
11/07/2018 03:33 PMPosted by Jelybeantoes
11/07/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Tetsubin
...
Does every single type of content need to be designed first and foremost for pugging? There's no lack of solo-pug content and systems in this game. Can't we have like 2 or 3 things that are primarily geared towards organized groups?

Please list these "solo-pug content and systems in the game". I'm not seeing a long list of these things in BfA content. I'm just seeing a few trivial things that nobody does because it's boring and unrewarding.


The only thing you need a group/guild for in WoW is M+ and H/M raiding, and even then, M+ and Heroic raids are fairly widely pugged via the cross-realm Group Finder (which is a system Blizzard added for solo puggers).
11/07/2018 03:23 PMPosted by Rastlin
11/07/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Cuckchan
Blues:

    1. Any plans to make M+ more accessible to pugs?

    2. Any plans to remove RIO/ modify the information it can access from the API?

    3. Can we have confirmation that Fortified will not appear on +4 keys and lower?

    4. Any plans to update the in-game UI for the LFD tool which would allow us to be more selective about who we recruit (i.e. rating attached to completion rate for M+ which includes different factors and simply not timer)?

    5. Re-design of dungeons at lower keys to have certain trash packs removed so they can be more easily completed?

    6. Can you provide some insight of the current participation/ retention rate of M+? My current experience with it shows that majority of guild/ friends have stopped participating outside of their weekly +10.


I will be creating/ bumping this thread daily until we get a response.

Thanks,
A concerned customer


Many good suggestions.

They need to get the super sized nerf hammer out and make Mythic plus actually doable for the common player.


Why don't you be more honest about it? You want EVERY single player to have the absolute best possible loot and not have to work for it AT ALL.

And, for the people pushing higher keys, mythic raiding and other difficult content, that will be just for fun without ANY additional rewards for doing more difficult content.

It would be more genuine of you.
11/07/2018 03:33 PMPosted by Jelybeantoes
11/07/2018 03:30 PMPosted by Tetsubin
...
Does every single type of content need to be designed first and foremost for pugging? There's no lack of solo-pug content and systems in this game. Can't we have like 2 or 3 things that are primarily geared towards organized groups?

Please list these "solo-pug content and systems in the game". I'm not seeing a long list of these things in BfA content. I'm just seeing a few trivial things that nobody does because it's boring and unrewarding.


LFR, Normal, heroic, every dungeon, warfronts, island expeditions, bgs, m+. Probably the only thing not puggable being Mythic raiding.

What exactly is this long list of non-puggable things you think exists?
Mythic + is not hard learn either take the time to learn the instances and how to perform in them or realize that maybe M+ is not for you
OP--I exclusively pug M+ and can feel your pain. Having said that, I think we need to be careful about asking for more game and UI changes that make pugging/soloing even easier than it is already. Because IMO, it's hurting the social aspect of the game. Partying with friends, joining a guild, etc, should make our lives easier. It's an incentive to socialize, which I think is a good thing for the game overall.

That's not to say that these kinds of changes would be bad, but I think we need to keep an eye on it. The game is already overrun with systems and mechanics that make it too easy to play without social interaction. Everything is turning into solo queuing with random people and instant party disbands once the task is complete. The game feels far more cold and aloof than it did years ago.
11/07/2018 03:53 PMPosted by Goralcos
11/07/2018 03:33 PMPosted by Jelybeantoes
...
Please list these "solo-pug content and systems in the game". I'm not seeing a long list of these things in BfA content. I'm just seeing a few trivial things that nobody does because it's boring and unrewarding.


LFR, Normal, heroic, every dungeon, warfronts, island expeditions, bgs, m+. Probably the only thing not puggable being Mythic raiding.

What exactly is this long list of non-puggable things you think exists?


To add to this now that mythic Uldir is cross realm expect a lot of 2/8 pugs.

So, in all content of WoW there are exactly 6 bosses of 1 difficulty that would not be considered puggable
11/07/2018 03:53 PMPosted by Goralcos
11/07/2018 03:33 PMPosted by Jelybeantoes
...
Please list these "solo-pug content and systems in the game". I'm not seeing a long list of these things in BfA content. I'm just seeing a few trivial things that nobody does because it's boring and unrewarding.


LFR, Normal, heroic, every dungeon, warfronts, island expeditions, bgs, m+. Probably the only thing not puggable being Mythic raiding.

What exactly is this long list of non-puggable things you think exists?


Actually Mythic raiding is puggable as of yesterday
11/07/2018 03:18 PMPosted by Cuckchan
Blues:

    1. Any plans to make M+ more accessible to pugs?

    2. Any plans to remove RIO/ modify the information it can access from the API?

    3. Can we have confirmation that Fortified will not appear on +4 keys and lower?

    4. Any plans to update the in-game UI for the LFD tool which would allow us to be more selective about who we recruit (i.e. rating attached to completion rate for M+ which includes different factors and simply not timer)?

    5. Re-design of dungeons at lower keys to have certain trash packs removed so they can be more easily completed?

    6. Can you provide some insight of the current participation/ retention rate of M+? My current experience with it shows that majority of guild/ friends have stopped participating outside of their weekly +10.


I will be creating/ bumping this thread daily until we get a response.

Thanks,
A concerned customer


1 if you have trouble finding groups start your own or learn to tank and or heal. Or both!

2 no there isn't much wrong with it except that people sometimes use it to try and pug above the necessary level (but they are few and far between)

3 no nothing wrong with that as the 340 gear from lfr, warfront, and mythic 0 are all enough to do 2s and 3s if you do mechanics

4 this idea would literally clash with your first suggestion and enable a high degree of inaccessibility to pugs

5 I will admit that several packs seem to be meant to be intentionally skipped via rouge shroud but overall the trash is fine

6 why?

Also bumping/repeatedly remaking threads is against the rules so don't try it
great googly moogly , what have we here?

most of those questions are terrible and ignore that people can make their own groups or get in a guild to aleviate the issue entirely.
Blues:

    1. Any plans to make M+ more accessible to pugs?

    2. Any plans to remove RIO/ modify the information it can access from the API?

    3. Can we have confirmation that Fortified will not appear on +4 keys and lower?

    4. Any plans to update the in-game UI for the LFD tool which would allow us to be more selective about who we recruit (i.e. rating attached to completion rate for M+ which includes different factors and simply not timer)?

    5. Re-design of dungeons at lower keys to have certain trash packs removed so they can be more easily completed?

    6. Can you provide some insight of the current participation/ retention rate of M+? My current experience with it shows that majority of guild/ friends have stopped participating outside of their weekly +10.


I will be creating/ bumping this thread daily until we get a response.

Thanks,
A lazy customer


1. They are accessible. That's what group finder is for.

2. People would still find a way to vet you. It would just take longer. Raider.io isn't the sole reason to exclude people, especially when it's the last spot and you need some utility or another.

3. The only reason fortified is hard is because it forces you to learn the mechanics. This does not need to be fixed and having this on lower keys forces people to Lear. In order to get to higher keys, rather than hitting a brick wall when it finally does come in.

4. In point 2 you complained about selectivity, now you want more. Make up your mind. Or do you just want people to be forced to take you.

5. See my answer to point 3.

6. Same in my guild, because on our mains we no longer need upgrades outside the weekly cache. This is not a problem.

Also fixed your sign off for you.

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