More recent changes to Night Warrior

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11/08/2018 03:42 AMPosted by Anelaan
She could also have learned something from Godfrey and wants to make sure the people that she's raising aren't going to kill her. The corpses in Deathknell and the Western Plaguelands aren't exactly on the same level as a several thousand year veteran Night Elf Warden/commander.


If this were the case, the other NEs wouldn't deny you rezing them.
11/08/2018 04:06 AMPosted by Arazlok
If this were the case, the other NEs wouldn't deny you rezing them.


I'm not sure what argument you're making here, can you expand on your reasoning a bit?
11/08/2018 03:18 AMPosted by Yersynia
Only good news for both Night Elves and Forsaken.


I know right! Good news for everyone, those Night Elves are willing and the Forsaken aren't mass mind controlling. I hope we can stop beating this dead horse, again cdev has gone above and beyond to prove its not someone controlling their minds.

Problem solved. Everyone is happy.
Your confusion seems to stem from not understanding the difference between the Valkyr being able to do something and willing to do something. Also you jumped track and are applying the standards used when raising Human undead to the standards used when raising Night Elf undead, which is not justifiable under the current lore.


No no, nobody is talking about whether Valkyr is able or is willing to the act of raising.

The qualm with this issue is the perennial question - when does the undead have free will. So answer me if you can.

It has always been the case that an undead has free will after it has been raised. That is why they have a choice whether to follow Sylvanas, or to run off and do their own thing (Lilian).

It is an affront to the lore because now, free will is indicated to exist before the undead is raised. Because the night elves being raised has free will to choose not to be raised.

Then comes the next question - is there a difference between raising a human and raising a night elf.

Unless there is express retcon, the answer is no. This is because there are night elven death knights PCs. When the Lich King raised the night elven death knight character, your first quest literally states:

You have heard the call of the Lich King, death knight. Now is the time to answer your master.

Your training begins now


You don’t have a choice - you are called to answer your master, the Lich King. In other words, you have no free will when u are being raised. For the case of the Lich King, you don’t even have free will until the battle at Light’s Hope.
11/08/2018 04:38 AMPosted by Blitzhammer

Unless there is express retcon, the answer is no. This is because there are night elven death knights PCs. When the Lich King raised the night elven death knight character, your first quest literally states:

You have heard the call of the Lich King, death knight. Now is the time to answer your master.

Your training begins now


You don’t have a choice - you are called to answer your master, the Lich King. In other words, you have no free will when u are being raised. For the case of the Lich King, you don’t even have free will until the battle at Light’s Hope.


I don't think this is the right example to use, by virtue that the one calling is the Lich King. When the Lich King calls you, you answer. If you aren't willing, you are made willing. And then afterwards you are told "You made the decision to follow your new master on your own."
Man, now I can't decide how I want Sylvanas to bite it in SoO: 2.

Personally decapitated by Tyrande with that sexy new glaive.

Or death by wisp-bomb, like Archimonde.
1. What is Elune doing? Isn't she supposed to shepherd the kaldorei to their afterlife, at the very least?

2. Can't the wisps fly away from their bodies, into the forests or something?

P.S. The wisp form seems to be deeply connected to the night elves, even the Azsuna elves (who were never connected to druidism) turn into wisps upon death, and both death knights and Illidari kaldorei (reshaped by undead and fel magic) also retain them as spirits.

Maybe the Well of Eternity, connected to the world-soul and possibly bound to Aessina, has something to do with it, dating back to the beginnings of their people.
11/08/2018 04:38 AMPosted by Blitzhammer
Unless there is express retcon, the answer is no. This is because there are night elven death knights PCs. When the Lich King raised the night elven death knight character, your first quest literally states:

You have heard the call of the Lich King, death knight. Now is the time to answer your master.

Your training begins now

You don’t have a choice - you are called to answer your master, the Lich King. In other words, you have no free will when u are being raised. For the case of the Lich King, you don’t even have free will until the battle at Light’s Hope.


I'll reinforce Daiza's point. The Lich King SHOULD NOT be used as a baseline for Necromancy. He is the singular most powerful Necromancer on Azeroth. Any Necromancy the Scourge did was backed by his awesome powers. We can't really use those as A reliable standard.

Besides, I've personally considered the rules of Necromancy to be wildly inconsistent and all over the place. So I don't put much stock into this as an issue.

Oh, and before I forget...

FREE WILL INTENSIFIES
11/08/2018 04:38 AMPosted by Blitzhammer
No no, nobody is talking about whether Valkyr is able or is willing to the act of raising.


You are. Unless you don't know what impossible means.

11/08/2018 04:38 AMPosted by Blitzhammer
The qualm with this issue is the perennial question - when does the undead have free will. So answer me if you can.


Okay

11/08/2018 04:38 AMPosted by Blitzhammer
It has always been the case that an undead has free will after it has been raised. That is why they have a choice whether to follow Sylvanas, or to run off and do their own thing (Lilian).

It is an affront to the lore because now, free will is indicated to exist before the undead is raised. Because the night elves being raised has free will to choose not to be raised.


Not a question. This is called an assertion. It's an assertion you are wrong about and, after three exchanges, have failed to substantiate despite being asked multiple times to do so. Now I could just simply dismiss this assertion as unfounded, that is essentially the response that your failures deserve.

But I'll talk on this a little. It's established lore that the Forsaken believe in free will and the idea that the dead are given the option before they are raised aligns with that. It is established lore that Sylvanas' Valkyr can communicate with the dead, they did so when they were introduced in Edge of Night, so this revelation aligns with that. It is established that it does require effort to raise the dead to life, the revelation that they are not wasting that effort on people who do not wish it aligns with that. It is established that long dead ancestors continue on in the form of spirits and souls, and that they watch and judge the descendants of certain shamansitic tribes, the revelation that the dead have free will before they are raised aligns with that.

You have supplied no lore that this is even contradictory to the idea of the dead having free will before they are raised, let alone an "affront."

11/08/2018 04:38 AMPosted by Blitzhammer
Then comes the next question - is there a difference between raising a human and raising a night elf.

Unless there is express retcon, the answer is no. This is because there are night elven death knights PCs. When the Lich King raised the night elven death knight character, your first quest literally states:


Oh, you're talking to yourself again. Asking questions and then answering them yourself badly. Okay. Unfortunately your answer doesn't hold up. You're attempting to prove that Night Elves are revived as Forsaken in the same manner as humans by asserting that Night Elves are revived as Death Knights in the same manner as humans.

But you've not only failed to recognize that Forsaken and Death Knights are very different types of undead, resurrected by very different groups with very different values. In fact if we hold to your logic of the same treatment across the board, we would have to conclude that Night Elves are raised willingly by the Forsaken since humans are raised willingly by Forsaken in the same way that the Lich King raises both groups unwillingly.

11/08/2018 04:38 AMPosted by Blitzhammer
You have heard the call of the Lich King, death knight. Now is the time to answer your master.

Your training begins now


But your example also doesn't establish anything about the mechanics of Death Knight raising, so it doesn't speak to the mechanics of raising Night Elves, which is the point have failed to address.

I'm moving on Blitzy, you have singularly failed in every argument you have made. You should feel bad. And for everyone else, this is why a hug box of people who agree with your every post on reddit is not a way to refine your understanding of a topic.
I will only be satisfied if the turned elves allowed themselves to be raised to betray Sylvanas.
As a side note, for people claiming it's odd for Forsaken to choose to die if they were asked before resurrection to come back.

Lilan Voss talks in detail about the changes Resurrection causes. Not the least of which is a random amount of personality change and a touch of madness here and there, one can change their mind after they get up.

Much of this expansion regarding the Forsaken seems to revolve around the exact details of how the Val'kyr work.
11/08/2018 04:33 AMPosted by Deathisfinal


Problem solved. Everyone is happy.


I’ll only be happy when we reach the point where we, the players, don’t have to effectively bully the international corporation with a net worth in the billions and who employs professional writers, lore historians, marketers, editors and ex cetra — many of whom we know are capable in their jobs - into not !@#$ting the bed and serving up trash that would be laughed off most fan fiction sites in their $15/month subscription game.

Because given the substantial changes we’ve seen to this scenario, this quite clearly was not their original intention for how Darkshore was supposed to go down. If angry wisps, for example, were part of the original intent, why are they only being added two or three major iterations in? Why not so much as “PH: Sometimes they attack you instead”?

I mean, credit to Bliz for being willing to make changes for once I suppose, but it ain’t our job to have to police this %^-*. We’re paying them, they supposedly have people whose entire job is to catch this kind of crap long before we even see the barest hint of it.
I like how people are saying, since Derek was forceably rezzed and is going to be mindbroken/conditioned/MC'd/whathaveyou, it """"""""contradicts""""""" this darkshore content. Are people not aware that Derek is a specific case? And someone mentioned Koltira, lmao. What a spectacular reach.
11/08/2018 04:33 AMPosted by Deathisfinal
11/08/2018 03:18 AMPosted by Yersynia
Only good news for both Night Elves and Forsaken.


I know right! Good news for everyone, those Night Elves are willing and the Forsaken aren't mass mind controlling. I hope we can stop beating this dead horse, again cdev has gone above and beyond to prove its not someone controlling their minds.

Problem solved. Everyone is happy.


No. It's like spraying perfume on a turd. Night Elves who have just been killed by the Forsaken should NOT be joining the Forsaken. At all.
I actually have an idea about Derek. Please note this is pure headcanon, so disregard at your leisure. But I think Derek was "willing", in a way. Let me explain.

From when Derek was raised, we can see he's super confused. He's been dead so long, and the raising process can be very intense. I want to say that Derek's soul wasn't exactly at peace. By his words, all he remembers after dying is darkness (A common theme it seems).

I'm thinking that Derek's soul spent so long in that darkness, lost and confused, and then saw a light. A light beckoning to him, a voice offering him a chance to return. At this point, Derek is super confused. He may not even know he's dead. All he knows is he doesn't want to be in the dark anymore, so he follows the light.

Next thing he knows, he's waking up in a rotting body, surrounded by strangers and monsters. His mind reels as it tries to cope, to understand. But it isn't doing a very good job of it.

And so, his soul was willing, in a way. Though, perhaps, due to his state of being, he wasn't able to fully grasp what was happening. Again, pure headcanon. He could have also just been forcefully raised since Val'kyr should have no problem raising Humans. But I like my fancier explanation.

As an aside, I'm super curious to learn more about this "darkness" Derek found himself in. We keep seeing references to this, of dying and darkness.
We are trying to make sense of this, but deep down we all know that Blizzard has has been very sloppy, with lots of contradictory lore as to how much free will newly- raised Forsaken have. Raising night elfs does seem to be a new thing, so maybe the rules are different, and maybe Sia is a special case that is willing to join. But having more than a tiny number of other night elves willing to join is either mind-control, bad writing, or both.
I honestly don't know how I feel about this development. On one hand, I feel that it's a bit better than ALL of the resurrected elves just being like ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ but it still pokes a lot of holes in the whole Derek debacle as people are noting. This feels like a mess for Night Elves and Forsaken. Lots of missed opportunities that could have made this warfront story great.

11/08/2018 05:44 AMPosted by Resìleaf
I will only be satisfied if the turned elves allowed themselves to be raised to betray Sylvanas.


I hope this happens, or they at least give us more than 'I HAVE NO TIME TO EXPLAIN WHY I JUST HUNTED THE HORDE PC ACROSS THE MAP ONLY TO JOIN THEM.'
11/08/2018 06:24 AMPosted by Hackbrew
I actually have an idea about Derek. Please note this is pure headcanon, so disregard at your leisure. But I think Derek was "willing", in a way. Let me explain.


But we don't need this head canon and I don't want this head canon.

For one, Andorhall, Fenris Isle, Ambermill and I imagine their entire career working for the Lich King all establish that Val'kyr are capable of ressing people without their permission. If they didn't this time it doesn't really change the circumstances we find ourselves in.

Secondly, Derek Proudmoore is being chained up, tortured, and 'conditioned' to act as Sylvanas' agent in some way. So him not being forced to rise as a Forsaken doesn't change the character of these actions.

Most importantly though, there is more moral weight to the Forsaken's cardinal virtue of free will if they have the ability to force this choice, but they opt not too. I choose not to cheat on my wife, that matters because I'm married. If I were single and I chose not to cheat on my wife, it would be meaningless. The Forsaken choose not to force those who do not wish to be undead back into unlife. This matters because they could do it.
EH i mean i guess it gets rid of the shadow of the doubt that there is mind control because these Night Elves are literally joining forces with those that LITERALLY just killed them and their people.

It's Blizzards way of saying no really they REALLY want to join the Horde and Sylvanas, it's totes cool the Horde is waiting.

NE NPC: I'm pissed at the Horde for killing everyone I know I'm out for Vengeance!
Horde PC: DIE Elf!
NE NPC: Oh no, I wasn't strong enough for vengeance!
Horde PC: HAHA.. join us you weak POS
NE NPC: Yes! screw vengeance, for the Horde!
Nathanos: DAYUM you guys give up SUPER quick, lul here's your Horde emblem, lets go slaughter some Elves

A+ story telling
11/08/2018 07:16 AMPosted by Avondriel
EH i mean i guess it gets rid of the shadow of the doubt that there is mind control because these Night Elves are literally joining forces with those that LITERALLY just killed them and their people.

It's Blizzards way of saying no really they REALLY want to join the Horde and Sylvanas, it's totes cool the Horde is waiting.


Yeah, but at least now it's about 1 in 6 Night Elves accepting when offered the chance, and Nathanos points out how silly and unrealistic it is. The story isn't good, but these recent changes make it less bad.

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