How is Saurfang honorable?

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How is Saurfang honorable?
He isn't.
Next question?
11/08/2018 04:22 PMPosted by Artanu
He's not.


Amen brother
can I just remind everyone that Sylvanas would be dead and the horde destroyed if Saurfang hadn't saved her life when Malfurion was destroying her.

Saurfang stabbed Malfurion in the back, breaking his own morals to save Sylvanas. And she repayed him by acting smug, mocking him, and further trying to sully his morality by ordering him to finish off Malfurion when she could CLEARLY see he was struggling with his own actions.

If she needed Malfurion dead that badly she should have finished him off herself, it was so blatantly obvious that Saurfang was in turmoil oer it, and if she had any respect for him atall she wouldn't have put him in that situation. Also if he HAD killed Malfurion, Tyrande would have killed Saurfang.

Moving on, she then burns down a world tree (not just an alliance city, an actual world stabalising entity) and blames Saurfang for the actions with a bull!@#$ scapegoat excuse of "he made me do it" because he didn't do what she should have done herself when it was blatantly obvious he couldn't go through with it.

Saurfang has honour, way more honour than most of the horde.
He never was.

Child murdering monster, that's what he is.
11/08/2018 11:47 PMPosted by Aehl
A soldier with the Prussian mindset would rather die than turn his weapons on non combatants, it is in fact his DUTY to disobey.

Von Stauffenberg.

Erwin Rommel.

Oskar Schindler.

Raoul Wallenberg.

Remember them.


Yes, they're the good guys.

I'm old-school; I go by D&D alignment. These fellows are Chaotic Good; perhaps Neutral Good.

It's one thing to betray one leader for being evil, and maybe if it's just one, it's them.

If you're throwing out your leaders like dirty diapers, maybe it's you.
11/08/2018 04:13 PMPosted by Ishtásoñda
If Saurfang has honor why did he defect to the allies?


Captured. He did not surrender himself to the Alliance. In fact, when he lost the encounter in Undercity against the alliance forces, he demanded to have an honorable death. Anduin was the one who prevented that (and considering that he healed him, he was too wounded to resist). He even taunted Anduin as he was being taken into custody.

...but yeah, whatever fits your narrative of supporting your undead waifu doing no wrong because of 'war''...
Victory for Sylvanas!

Saurfang has no honor. He should have challenged Sylvanas to mok'gora. Doesn't matter if she didn't fight honorably, because he wanted to die anyway. Win/win. If he wanted to challenge her, dying in this fashion would have been the most effective option to show others what he wanted them to see (Sylvanas not caring about orc ideas of honor). If he was scared if being raised, simply should have set the rule that his corpse be burned immediately upon his death by a neutral/third party.

Y'all can be petty and call me a mindless puppet, an edgelord, or whatever for siding with Sylvanas, but that doesn't make your argument good or correct. Sylvanas has fought for the Forsaken since WC3: The Frozen Throne, she has the fabulosity, she's a Diva. I'll stan her even after True Death in the Shadowlands.
I can't believe they wrote Saurfang like this. Literally one of the best Horde Warriors turned into a traitor. Wow.
11/08/2018 04:35 PMPosted by Tiridan
Saurfang is a Traitor, and Sylvanas is insane.

So our Warchief list is narrowed down to: Baine, Thrall, and Vol'jin (He's not dead).


Hey! What about Regent Lord Lor'the- *BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!*

Ahem. Sorry. Even *I* couldn't say that with a straight face.
11/08/2018 04:13 PMPosted by Ishtásoñda
If Saurfang has honor why did he defect to the allies?
Honor verb "fulfill (an obligation) or keep (an agreement)."
Traitor noun "a person who betrays a friend, country, and principle"
Honor noun "high respect; esteem."
So Saurfang as a warrior with his "honor" decided to give up his will to fight and give up then to become a traitor and people think hes a good person and should be the next warchief? And that is ok?


You left out the other one listed in the source you used: "adherence to what is right or to a conventional standard of conduct" which is the definition of honor that actually applies when discussing Saurfang's role as honorable in BfA.
11/08/2018 06:26 PMPosted by Kaath
11/08/2018 04:23 PMPosted by Atarael
...

Almost as if they hinted at that in a recent cinematic.. what was it called again...

Oh shucks, i've lost it.


That Saurfang is a coward. He stepped asides to allow his Warchief get killed by the Alliance.


Kinda like what Sylvanas did with Garrosh?
11/10/2018 12:34 AMPosted by Knivlagg
I can't believe they wrote Saurfang like this. Literally one of the best Horde Warriors turned into a traitor. Wow.


Not atall, Saurfang is loyal to the spirit and ideals of the horde. Everyone sideing with Sylvanas is betraying everything the horde sands for, they are the traitors.
11/09/2018 05:13 AMPosted by Jaels


Can I ask Horde one simple question. I'll space it out.

WHAT DID ORGRIMMAR NEED PROTECTION FROM BEFORE YOU STARTED ANOTHER WAR?

Do tell.


I will quote you the relevant part from the BfA short story "A Good War" by Robert Brooks.

Sylvanas’s eyes did not waver, even in the face of his rage. “If I dedicated myself to peace with the Alliance, would it last a year?”

“Yes,” Saurfang said curtly.

“How about two years? Five? Ten? Fifty?”

Saurfang felt the trap closing in on him, and he did not like it. “We fought side‐by‐side against the Burning Legion. That creates bonds that are not easily broken.”

“Time breaks every bond.” Sylvanas leaned across the table. Her words flew like arrows. “What do you believe? Will peace last five years or fifty?”

He leaned forward, too, his face inches away from hers. Neither blinked. “What I believe doesn’t matter, Warchief. What do you believe?”

“I believe the exiles of Gilneas will never forgive the Horde for driving them away. I believe the living humans of Lordaeron think it is blasphemy that my people still hold their city. I believe the ancient divide between our allies in Silvermoon and their kin in Darnassus is not easily mended.” There was a smile on Sylvanas’s face. It was not a pleasant one.

“I believe the Darkspear tribe hasn’t forgotten who drove them from their islands,” she continued. “I believe every orc your age remembers being imprisoned for years in filthy camps, wallowing in despair and surviving on human scraps. I believe every human remembers the tales of the terrible Horde that caused so much destruction in its first invasion, and I believe they blame every orc for that, no matter what your people have done to redeem yourselves. And I remember very well that I and my first Forsaken were once loyal Alliance citizens. We died for that banner, and our reward was to be hunted as vermin. I believe that there will be no permanent peace with the Alliance—not unless we win it on the battlefield on our terms. And believing that, answer this, Saurfang: what use is delaying the inevitable?”


The other part people are forgetting is the Azerite being weaponised by both sides, essentially WMD's are on the table and an arms race has ensued.
11/10/2018 01:02 AMPosted by Aríadníe
11/10/2018 12:34 AMPosted by Knivlagg
I can't believe they wrote Saurfang like this. Literally one of the best Horde Warriors turned into a traitor. Wow.


Not atall, Saurfang is loyal to the spirit and ideals of the horde. Everyone sideing with Sylvanas is betraying everything the horde sands for, they are the traitors.


Thing is, I think most of the "Saurfang is a traitor" mind set are those that think loyalty belongs to the Horde/warchief, not the ideals of the Horde, Well, here is what I have to say to that:

Orcs: it was the "ideals' of the Horde that freed you from the Legion
Trolls: it was the "ideals" of the Horde that saved you from the sea witch and gave you a place in the Horde
Tauren: It was the "ideals" of the Horde that helped us see the Orcs, and Trolls, as spiritual brothers
Forsaken: it was the "ideals" of the Horde that helped convince Thrall to let you in
Blood Elves: same as forsaken
Goblins: Look at what the Horde has done for you and see how their ideals helped you out after you lost your home
Pandaren: It was the "Ideals" of the Horde that called to you

Warchiefs come and go, the Spirit and Ideals of the Horde live on. So which is more important in the long run, loyalty to the Warchief or loyalty to the spirit and ideals of the Horde?
As more of these threads pop up, the harder it's getting to tell if Saurfang's detractors are just sycophants of their undead waifu or if they are honestly expressing their view of what honor and following orders are.

"Just following orders" is not honorable. Doing evil because you swore to follow the person telling you to do those things isn't acceptable and doesn't absolve you of the evil you committed. I suggest you watch the film Judgement at Nuremberg if you don't understand this.

If you just like playing the bad guy, that's fine, lots of people do. But if you truly believe that what Saurfang is doing is wrong then you really need to educate yourselves.
Ok lets just look at the facts and see if you can debate if Saurfang is a traitor with no honor or not.

As a warrior and a commander of the Horde he devised the strategy that when the night elves sent their army to Silithus he would divert the horde army north to capture and kill Malfurion and Darnassus. He made this plan when he heard the Alliance sent an army to prevent the Horde from having the azerite. "fact"

When given the chance he knew that killing Malfurion right now would prevent anything else from continuing further and lost the fight badly, "fact"

Later he stepped in the fight with Sylvanas and Malfurion and struck him in the back with his axe. "fact"
After the fact he knelt down in self pity because it was against his code of honor, and let his objective live. I say objective because Malfurion was by his order and the Horde's means to a fast end in this war front, the objective. "fact"

He gives up his pride and will to fight to die by running into the enemy army "fact"

He gives up the chance to maybe end the war and kill the enemy leader but instead decides that he wants the sworn enemy of the horde's leader to live so that leader can kill the leader of the Horde. "fact"

For you that think the horde is good i have sad new it is not! The horde is a ragtag group of races that banded together to provide strong support for survival. it has nothing to do with the individual races's customs.

Orcs under the influence of fel they became bloodthirsty and are trying to gain back some old ways before the corruption.
Blood elves survive off of the essence of other living things.
Goblins are a f u c k i n g Cartel.
Trolls uses voodoo and their last leader was a shadow hunter that specializes in assassination.
Tauren are earthbound, peaceful, and prideful people.
Forsaken gained self awareness and was hunted buy all living factions, they joined and pledged allegiance to the horde to survive in numbers.

Yet even Baine left Saurfang to die because he as a warrior of the Tauren and he knew Saurfang left everything behind him and that was his honor, pride and his self as a warrior of the horde.

So no the horde is not the "Good Faction"
Everyone in the current Horde are traitors. Eat crow, Horde.
LOL

Let put all aside and look at this way.

1. Suarfang repeated ignore orders. Not once but over five times.
2. Attack someone behind.
3. instead ritual suicide. he reckless attacks the enemy twice.
4. spares the enemy in hopes he kills his enemies twice.
5. refuses to excsape from prison when had chance.
6. Hides out and plots rebellion

This in just a matter of bfa. Ok not sure what honor you want to put on it now days or medieval which this game is set in. in that era they swore allegiance to their lord or monarch as a vassal—to protect, honor, and serve as a fighter in exchange for land holdings. Unfortunately, the well intended and beautiful "chivalric code", rarely affected most knights, who plundered, slaughtered, and looted often when given the chance. Like suarfang most choose to use the code for their benfite. So is he acting honorble or using honor to futher his carrier goals?

He stated clearly he let boy king live in hopes that he slay his war cheif. So i leave it at that.
11/09/2018 11:37 PMPosted by Mortex
Victory for Sylvanas!

Saurfang has no honor. He should have challenged Sylvanas to mok'gora. Doesn't matter if she didn't fight honorably, because he wanted to die anyway. Win/win. If he wanted to challenge her, dying in this fashion would have been the most effective option to show others what he wanted them to see (Sylvanas not caring about orc ideas of honor). If he was scared if being raised, simply should have set the rule that his corpse be burned immediately upon his death by a neutral/third party.

Y'all can be petty and call me a mindless puppet, an edgelord, or whatever for siding with Sylvanas, but that doesn't make your argument good or correct. Sylvanas has fought for the Forsaken since WC3: The Frozen Throne, she has the fabulosity, she's a Diva. I'll stan her even after True Death in the Shadowlands.

You are by far my favorite Forsaken poster lol.
Saurfang is a tired old man who wants nothing more than to not fight any more wars and wants to retire in the Horde he helped Thrall create.

But... he has left honor behind by first letting Malfurion live and taken away to fight another day. Second he let's Anduin live not just once but twice. So much for wanting to die an honorable warriors death. Third he betrays the Horde and it's Warchief when he walks through the open cell door deliberately left open by Anduin, Stormwind's King and the Horde's mortal enemy. Fourth, according to the novella "Good War" Saurfang states he has spent much time after SoO making sure that Orgrimmar was secure so who better to betray that security than him?

Saurfang has assured that there will no longer be a Horde but rather a vassal state administered and ruled by Stormwind. Those who side with him might as well go to Stormwind's gates and lay down their weapons in surrender now.

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