Horde Civil War

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10/08/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Treng
Every time one of her named undead has died this expansion, they've commented on what Sylvanas has been trying to save them from.

Can you point me to an example of that?
10/08/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Treng
1: When raised they do not attack the Horde -- regardless of being Horde or Alliance.

2: They do not attack eachother after BFL ends. This means that faction pride is not at play.

3: They attack all members of the Horde and Alliance.

Blizzard has explained a thousand times that it's not mind control. It's stupid in my opinion, but again it's not mind control, just some handwave "berserker rage" thing. Take it up with Blizz, I'm going by what they have said a million times.
10/08/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Treng
Sylvanas has something hidden in the Undercity that she's using her damned undead slaves to keep the Horde from discovering, since the Horde has blight proof masks.

10/08/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Treng
She didn't enslave Godfrey. She enslaved every one she mass murdered at BFLK and everyone she raised in Darkshore during 8.1

This is entirely conjecture and denies what Blizz has outright said, and I'm not gonna take it seriously as a point against Sylvanas.
10/08/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Treng
Are you implying that the only way to enslave the dead is the crown?

Darkmaster Gandling already proved that wrong when he enslaved Voss.

Yes, because a necromancer temporarily enslaving one undead woman means that Sylvanas can permanently enslave an entire nation of untold thousands of undead people. Can Shadow Priests enslave untold masses too?
10/08/2018 07:48 AMPosted by Treng
She's never present for any of the battles at all. The last we see of her is when she fails to get her lamp.

We can't trust anything we see in-game, as the War of Thorns supplemental material has proven. We don't see Jaina in Legion, but it's explained she was slaughtering waves upon waves of demons for a year.

It's entirely reasonable to expect that the Warchief of the Horde would be intimately involved with the war against the Legion, blame Blizz for not paying attention to the Horde. Did Baine, Saurfang and all other leaders abandon the Horde during Legion except for a few cameos?
It's entirely reasonable to expect that the Warchief of the Horde would be intimately involved with the war against the Legion, blame Blizz for not paying attention to the Horde. Did Baine, Saurfang and all other leaders abandon the Horde during Legion except for a few cameos?


I’ll go one further and say that given how much we do see of her, and how readily she fights on the front lines of every conflict she is in, that there is more argument for her fighting the Legion than there is for most of the named characters we see who are meant to be fighting the war but we never see do anything.

Yeah, she goes on a solo mission to try and save her people and the Alliance try to murder her out of the blue, but while she’s off on that quest do we really expect she wasn’t dropping demons as she went?
Can you point me to an example of that?
Sure. Alliance war campaign in Voldun. You and Captain America (I can't remember his name) go and hunt an undeader. You kill her and she says "Is this what you were trying to save us from?"
Blizzard has explained a thousand times that it's not mind control
Citation? I don't remember them ever commenting on the damned undead slaves of BFL.
but again it's not mind control, just some handwave "berserker rage" thing.
Ah. 2012. That doesn't explain how she doesn't free the undead after BFL ends. It also doesn't explain how they ALL move without being commanded verbally.
If you read the story where Nathanos gets his nephew's (cousin's?) body, it looks exactly like when he was a mind-slave of Arthas.
and denies what Blizz has outright said,
Citation? If it's 2012 it doesn't matter. We witness her Valkyr trying to enslave Tyrande. We witness her enslaving the horde soldiers she murders. We witness her never freeing those damned, undead slaves.
Yes, because a necromancer temporarily enslaving one undead woman means that Sylvanas can permanently enslave an entire nation of untold thousands of undead people. Can Shadow Priests enslave untold masses too?
Sylvanas? IDK. Valkyr? Sure.
10/08/2018 11:51 AMPosted by Vozul
We can't trust anything we see in-game,
https://i.imgur.com/KcYj4Ql.jpg
10/08/2018 12:23 PMPosted by Treng
Sure. Alliance war campaign in Voldun. You and Captain America (I can't remember his name) go and hunt an undeader. You kill her and she says "Is this what you were trying to save us from?"
Halford Wyrmbane? Also, I think the Vol'dun quests are the only time I specifically recall seeing no forsaken. It's all goblins and blood elves.

That said, I do know I've seen the line you mention. Usually while killing the rando forsaken out in Stormsong.
10/08/2018 12:27 PMPosted by Jerolan
10/08/2018 12:23 PMPosted by Treng
Sure. Alliance war campaign in Voldun. You and Captain America (I can't remember his name) go and hunt an undeader. You kill her and she says "Is this what you were trying to save us from?"
Halford Wyrmbane? Also, I think the Vol'dun quests are the only time I specifically recall seeing no forsaken. It's all goblins and blood elves.

That said, I do know I've seen the line you mention. Usually while killing the rando forsaken out in Stormsong.
idk, i swore it was near the area where the horde has the ghost inn.

Also, yes, Wyrmbane.
Man, I'm not here to argue about the nitty gritty details. I've laid out my position, you've laid out your position, I'm cool with leaving it there. Keep your headcanons.
https://youtu.be/e5IAWcJ7bSg?t=140

Nazmir, not Voldun.

10/08/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Vozul
Keep your headcanons.
::She says, willfully ignoring a Valkyr literally casting mind control while Nathanos brags that the other night elf zambinos suffered the same fate.::
“Hurr hurr peeple only liek Sylvanas cuz she’s a grill!”

Get some new material.


Except it's true. Look at half the people on here who'd defend Sylvanas and get upset when you don't praise her but get upset when you mention Garrosh.


Except it's not universally true. She has two other things going for her over Garrosh.
1. WC3 character, this is actually huge and people ignoring it are frankly idiots as nearly every playable Wc3 character has a massive following simply for having been a focus of the RTS.
2. She's had way more years of development, again this sort of connects to the first point but love her or hate her she's been around a LOT horde side while Garrosh barely showed up in BC, was a generic looking forgettable loud mouth in WotLK and only started to see significant development once he became warchief.

And by the by I actually do defend Garrosh up until they made him go crazy for old god power and actively pushed out the other races. Him being an Orc supremacist obsessed with power and glory I thought was fine, in fact he was a somewhat interesting villain with his weird perception of honor sometimes while simultaneously being obsessed with war. He was in many ways a Saurfang done right until they pushed him over the edge.

The people who whitewash Sylvanas fans as thirsty or edgy are just people too lazy to come up with a meaningful argument.
10/07/2018 09:46 PMPosted by Dakore
Preferably I'd like to have been the peace maker who got in between them and told them "The Horde can't afford internal fighting right now", but I think that ship sailed. Sylvanas has to go. Not only for the Horde but for everything else as well.

I choose Saurfang.

10/07/2018 09:37 PMPosted by Caith
Neither at this point I chose Thrall and tell him to clean up this damn mess he made in cata.

Thrall didn't cause this mess. Or at least you'd have to direct several different events into a chain if you want to link it back to him, but that crap doesn't fly.

The being to blame for this mess is whoever supposedly posed as a Loa and planted the idea of "Windrunner" in a dying Vol'jin's head. I have an axe to grind against that person. A lightning bolt too.


Yeah...the only thing you can really blame Thrall for was being stupid enough to appoint Garrosh as Warchief when he went off to save the world Shaman-style...when if he'd practiced what he preached (All races of the Horde are equal in my eyes) he would've just picked Cairne or Vol'jin to begin with and we'd have avoided all of this mess.

As for the question itself....there's no question. Given the choice between a female Lich King (because face it, that's what the current writers have reduced her to) and Saurfang, who at least has realistic, non-sociopathic character flaws, the choice to me is a no-brainer. None of my Horde characters are evil, and the ones who once DID admire and support Sylvanas have seen the light and realized what's she become.
10/08/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Tråpstar
She has two other things going for her over Garrosh.
But is it really that high of a bar?
10/08/2018 01:00 PMPosted by Tråpstar
Him being an Orc supremacist obsessed with power and glory I thought was fine
I never really understood the appeal.
10/08/2018 10:53 AMPosted by Tewdee
10/08/2018 06:27 AMPosted by Onotay
... “Hurr hurr peeple only liek Sylvanas cuz she’s a grill!”

Get some new material.


Except it's true. Look at half the people on here who'd defend Sylvanas and get upset when you don't praise her but get upset when you mention Garrosh.

10/08/2018 09:43 AMPosted by Asmom
If the choice is Forsaken/Goblins/Blood Elves vs. Orcs/Tauren/Trolls...I'm going to side with the interesting team over the "muh honor" team.


Saturday morning cartoon villains is interesting now? I guess Blizzard is writing comic books for children, so it makes sense why you'd think that.


Wtf!!!

Since when are Belves the equivalent to Saturday Morning Cartoon villains?

Pardon me but regarding characterization of morality themathics; both trolls and the elves (belves, nightborne) are quite similar and basically the middle ground in the Horde. Orcs and Tauren are the "muh Honor" cartoon morons and Forsaken / Goblins plain cartoon / cartoon evil. Pandaren don't exist as usual -poor guys-.
10/08/2018 12:52 PMPosted by Treng
https://youtu.be/e5IAWcJ7bSg?t=140

Nazmir, not Voldun.

10/08/2018 12:45 PMPosted by Vozul
Keep your headcanons.
::She says, willfully ignoring a Valkyr literally casting mind control while Nathanos brags that the other night elf zambinos suffered the same fate.::


Yeah, I just said that wasn't the same thing as mind control on a racial scale. Shadow priest spells does not a Lich Queen make. Nice job willfully ignoring my arguments for that snappy comeback.
Treng bby you’ve got a lot of good reasons to be mad, you don’t need to die on the hill for the shaky ground like mind-controlling the dead.

Blizz is telling the story awfully but free will is still very much in play.
https://youtu.be/e5IAWcJ7bSg?t=140

Nazmir, not Voldun.

<span class="truncated">...</span> ::She says, willfully ignoring a Valkyr literally casting mind control while Nathanos brags that the other night elf zambinos suffered the same fate.::


Yeah, I just said that wasn't the same thing as mind control on a racial scale. Shadow priest spells does not a Lich Queen make. Nice job willfully ignoring my arguments for that snappy comeback.


Actually, I think the debuff was called "Dominate Mind", rather than "Mind Control". Regardless, I think the more damning thing is Nathanos' dialogue in that whole scenario. He seems 100 percent convinced that upon raising Tyrande as a Forsaken that she will join their side. Shouldn't that raise some red flags?

Dominate Mind need not actually be mind control, but merely twisting the mind so that once its given "free will" its a more convenient will that gets to be free. Its hard to look at the actions of the Forsaken in 8.1 (with an apparent 100 percent success rate of raised Night Elves joining their murderers) and not think somethings amiss.
dom·i·nate
ˈdäməˌnāt/
verb
verb: dominate; 3rd person present: dominates; past tense: dominated; past participle: dominated; gerund or present participle: dominating

have a commanding influence on; exercise control over.
10/08/2018 11:51 PMPosted by Treng
dom·i·nate
ˈdäməˌnāt/
verb
verb: dominate; 3rd person present: dominates; past tense: dominated; past participle: dominated; gerund or present participle: dominating

have a commanding influence on; exercise control over.


I pointed this out in another thread but if we are using the presence of a buff to determine if someone is being mind controlled or not then the fact that this buff appears on Tyrande and not the raised nelves is pretty undeniable proof that they are acting of their own free will. I mean if it generates a buff when used then why doesn’t it appear on any of the other victims?

Maybe mind control and raise dead are two different spells dude. Maybe.
10/08/2018 11:55 PMPosted by Yersynia
I pointed this out in another thread but if we are using the presence of a buff
We aren't. We're using the presence of a cast bar.
10/08/2018 11:56 PMPosted by Treng
10/08/2018 11:55 PMPosted by Yersynia
I pointed this out in another thread but if we are using the presence of a buff
We aren't. We're using the presence of a cast bar.


Changes nothing - there’s a buff that indicates when a Valkyr is mind controlling someone and it isn’t on Delaryn or Sira.

Q.E.D
10/09/2018 12:02 AMPosted by Yersynia
Changes nothing - there’s a buff that indicates when a Valkyr is mind controlling someone and it isn’t on Delaryn or Sira.
Changes nothing - there's a buff when someone uses a cast bar spell on someone.

Q.E.D

Nathanos says Tyrande is suffering the same fate that her sisters had. You will ignore this, because it demonstrably proves that they're mind controlled.

After all, Sylvanas dindunuffin'.
I don’t think you understand what Q.E.D means. There is a buff that indicates when someone is being mind controlled. That is an indicator of the state of being dominated. It’s negative is the absence of domination, where there is no buff there is no dominate.

If I use Blood Plague on someone, it is active while the debuff icon is present. If I channel Blooddrinker, it is ends when the cast bar goes away. There is a visual indication of when someone is being mind controlled that was made specifically to indicate this state of being.

It is not present on Sira and the other dead nelves. They do not have a debuff for my blood plague because they do not have my blood plague. They do not have a debuff for mind control because they are not being mind controlled. In fact the presence of a cast bar implies that like priests the Valkyr can only do this by channeling a direct spell with a beam effect. Also not present on the Forsaken or the Nelves.

There’s a buff that indicates when a Valkyr is mind controlling someone and it isn’t on Delaryn or Sira.

If we’re admitting buffs as evidence then this is not on your side.

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